Claiming training - The Book-keepers Forum (UK)

peter1162 · Veteran Member

Claiming training

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Peter,

the training course is learning something new rather than enhancing existing revenue producing skills and is therefore NOT an allowable expense.

If you had already passed your exams and were working as a bookkeeper then training for enhancements such as payroll or self assessment would be allowable expenses.

Sorry, it's the crazy situation but the initial training is all out of your own pocket.

I suppose the argument is that the training that you suffered has put you in the position to start your company rather than suffering the training as a necessity of being able to perform your work.

Sage is quite horrible but it's the most commonly used by clients so it's a good idea if using it is second nature to you for when you need to work on client systems even if you are not using it as your own primary piece of software (for which I can highly recommend VT Transaction+).

kind regards,

Shaun.

peter1162 · Veteran Member

Dear Shamus

I just realised that I have been calling you Shaun, my sincere apologies.

So basically as soon as I get my AICB and start trading I can start to claim my expenses back from the HMG. Does that also mean that if I set up a business and started an agency doing say home cleaning, I could claim the expenses back for my training, I am just trying to look at every avenue

What is the best source to get hold of VT Transaction+ please.

Kind regards

Peter

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Peter,

No, I am Shaun. Just my userid is Shamus.

Think that you misunderstand me on the training.

I'm saying that you can't claim the money back for the bookkeeping training... Ever.

When you can claim training is where it's for continued professional development suffered wholly and exclusively for your revenue generating business.

If you started a cleaning business then only costs incurred wholly and exclusively in running that business would be allowable. You do not need to be a trained bookkeeper to run a cleaning business therefore it would not be an allowable expense.

The money that you have invested to date is lost and future revenues cannot be set against that. When you are trading things change in relation to future training expenses but not in related to past intangibles.

Some tangible assets bought before a business starts where they are purchased wholly and exclusively for use in the business can be set against future income but not training costs where one is acquiring new skills.

VT Transaction+ is available for a 60 day free trial from http://www.vtsoftware.co.uk/

cheers,

Shaun.

Wella · Expert

Shaun

If a qualificaction is gained as a minimum to get a practice license (let's say ICB level II manual for example) and services are offered, how in your view, would course fees and exam fees be treated for the additional qualifications to get level II comp and level III manual & comp, after trading has started?

Bill

peter1162 · Veteran Member

Thank you for that question Bill

Peter

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Bill,

training up to the point where one is trading (gains practicing certificate) is down to your funds.

So, at least up to ICB level II (AICB) is self funded.

When trading then training taken wholly an necessarily for the purpose of furthering the practice would be allowable.

A problem case is where people pay for levels I, II and III in advance of trading (as is the case with Peter) that the level III is not going to be an allowable expense where one could argue that it could be if it had been purchased once the business had started trading.

Of course, the revenue standpoint could be that the company was able to trade with only AICB status so may disallow the course unless the ICB regulations were changed to necessitate MICB for continued practice.

CPD however is allowable and once MICB is attained Payroll and Self assessment qualifications can count towards the CPD requirement.

talk later,

Shaun.

Wella · Expert

Hi Shaun

As usual, thanks for your considered answer.

Started to get my hopes up on claiming back the course/ exam fees, over and above those necessary for the practice license but hadn't considered the fact that they were paid for as a single course, to gain the full set (inc Payroll!) before I started trading. However some of the exams were paid independantly after trading started and were necessary for me to offer the extra services (Computerised systems, year end, payroll etc)

If the ICB offer the neccessary additional qualifications for current members with only comp or manual, to maintain AICB/ MICB as CPD, it may be difficult for revenue to deny others the same?

Bill

peter1162 · Veteran Member

Hi

I assume CPD is Continued Proffessional Development.

Kind regards

Peter

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Peter,

yes it is.

At AICB you don't need it but at MICB you do which is one reason that a lot of people park themselves at AICB.

I suspect that it's only a matter of time before the ICB sort that discrepancy out and start giving us a time limit to get from AICB to MICB.

Hi Bill,

yes but again it still depends on when the qualification was paid for.

If you are in practice already then the changes being implemented by the ICB that mean you have to take additional exams to keep your current status are an allowable expense.

The key is that the members are already in practice rather than passing exams in order to gain the ability to be in practice.

I've always found that if there are two ways of looking at a situation always assume that the revenue will choose the one that disadvantages you!

Just wait until you get to argue with them about travel expenses. For every piece of HMRC documentation that you can quote to show things one way they'll have another that shows completely the opposite! (I'm thinking site based travel and the two year rule).

cheers,

Shaun.

BackOfficeGroup · Guru

Shaun

Is the site based travel and 2 year rule for everyone? I know all about it for Contractors but not generally.

Cheers.

P

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Phillip,

Mine was also from the contractors perspective but it's actually for all site based travel where such is deemed a temporary workplace.

Cheers,

Shaun.

peter1162 · Veteran Member

Hi Shaun

My course with the so called training providers is only for Manual Level 1 and Computing Level 2 wanted to see what it was like before spending more money.

Thus if I understand what you are saying is that if I get to AICB with these two exams. Start up my company I can claim for more traing if it is relevant to my business.

I want to keep on going with the exams to get to MICB.

One more question, in accounts, I am getting confused with the rubbish documents from HLC. On the debit side when you carry over the amount for the next month is it Balance b/f and on the credit side is it Balance c/f. I have seen so many variations on this it is getting confusing.

Kind regards

Peter

Neil · Senior Member

Peter

I think balance c/f, b/f, c/d, b/d are all OK as long as you are consistent. I stick to c/f and b/d but I see all varieties in other materials.

Cheers

Neil

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Peter,

this is a really important area to get your head around but it's difficult to explain without showing it in a diagram.

The balance b/fwd and balance c/fwd will appear in the T account dependent upon the balance of the account.

The side that is the lesser will have a balancing figure to balance the account. That figure then swaps sides of the T account to become the carried forward amount which is the following periods brought forwards amount.

Lets take two examples of the same customer account. See below what happens when an additional £3000 is received from the client (sorry if this doesn't work, first time that I've uploaded an image):

Got to go but will be back to chat about this in a while.

talk later,

Shaun.

P.S. in all the excitement of trying to upload a picture I clear forgot :
Brought relates to what you are bringing into the period. Carried relates to what you are taking into the next period. Some texts use forward, others down. As Neil states. it doesn't really matter which so long as they are consistent. (I always use forwards).

-- Edited by Shamus on Tuesday 9th of February 2010 02:46:09 PM

Wella · Expert

Neil & Peter

I think technically c/d and b/d are used to transfer the closing and opening balances in the account (One line is carried down to the next in a T account)

C/f and b/f are used to transfer values from one column to corresponding column on another page. (One line is carried forward to the next page). I've seen c/f used on a P&L a/c to show the profit movement to the Balance Sheet and like wise b/f on the balance sheet.

(Source: Oxford Dictionary of Accounting)

Hope that clears things up

Bill

Shaun a simultanious posting

-- Edited by Wella on Tuesday 9th of February 2010 02:45:09 PM

-- Edited by Wella on Tuesday 9th of February 2010 02:49:02 PM

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

I think that you're right Bill but I've definitely seen down and forwards used interchangeably in some texts. Got to go now but will continue this chat later.

In my rush I think I answered a question but it wasn't the one being asked (Doh!).

Wella · Expert

Hi Shaun

I have seen it used interchangeably too, although every text book (and the Oxford dictionary) I've seen uses c/d & b/d in T accounts, even though the balance can be Carried Down/ Bought Down to a following page (I always think of a T account as being infinite)

I think you did answer Peters question in his post two down from your answer (The last paragraph)

Bill

Wella · Expert

peter1162 wrote:
One more question, in accounts, I am getting confused with the rubbish documents from HLC. On the debit side when you carry over the amount for the next month is it Balance b/f and on the credit side is it Balance c/f. I have seen so many variations on this it is getting confusing.

Just to go back to your origional question Peter.

c/d is for the figure carried down on the T account irrispective of the side of the account it is on (DR or CR) and b/d is for the amount bought down to the next accounting period. As Shaun was eluding to, if for example you c/d £100 (the balancing amount)from the Debit side, it is b/d to the Credit side to become the opening balance for the next accounting period

This example shows the opposite, a Closing balance on the credit side becomes the opening balance on the Debit side and the c/d and b/d have also changed

VAT							GL5
Date	Particulars	Folio	Amount	Date	Particulars	Folio	Amount
Dec 31	Purchases Day Book		£ 140	Dec 31	Sales Day Book		£ 118
					Balance	c/d	22
			£ 140				£ 140
Jan 01	Balance	b/d	£ 22

Hope that helps
Bill

BackOfficeGroup · Guru

I use the b/d c/d when clsoing and opening accounts, whereas b/f c/f when turning a page, as in the example form Bill.

P

semsley · Guru

BackOfficeGroup wrote:

I use the b/d c/d when clsoing and opening accounts, whereas b/f c/f when turning a page, as in the example form Bill.

P

Me too. IE c/d or c/f for the closing balance and b/d or b/f for the opening balance.

-- Edited by semsley on Tuesday 9th of February 2010 07:59:42 PM