New to Bookkeping - The Book-keepers Forum (UK)

peter1162 · Veteran Member

New to Bookkeping

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Peter,

few quick questions before I answer this :

Do you have any previous experience of bookkeeping?

Have you done the manual bookkeeping course yet?

Have you affiliated yourself with a supervisory body yet?

talk in a while,

Shaun.

peter1162 · Veteran Member

Hi Shaun

I have no actual experience of bookkeeping, but did quite a bit of accountancy in my degree to understand business. I have used it sparingly in employment.

I am finding my course quite easy, so far, and believe that I will an Associate Member of the ICB once I have finished my course.

The manual bookkeeping course is part of my course, I had read a lot of the Manual Bookkeeping course before starting on the computing course and I am covering the same data again in the computerised course.

I hope that this makes sense.

Kind regards

Peter

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Cheers Peter,

Just had a quick glance at the home learning site to check out whch course that your on and it sounds like the Sage certificate in computerised bookkeeping that you're doing?

They're not telling the whole truth about the ICB but it's not too far out.

To get AICB (comp) status you will need to sit the level I manual exam (which you can do from home) followed by the Level II computerised (again you can do it from home). That will entitle you to use the letters AICB (comp) after your name.

The course that you're doing will prepare you for those exams so shouldn't be an issue.

Where AICB (comp) gets you has actually changed over the last month in that the institute now also require you to pass the level II manual before they will issue you with a practicing certificate.

Once you have passed level II manual and computerised and gained full AICB status you will be able to get PII insurance which is a prerequisite for a practicing certificate.

When you have a practicing certificate from the AICB you will be covered for Money Laundering Regulations. Without the practicing certificate you would have to get MLR approval directly from HMRC which will set you back around £170. (£120 to approve your property, £50 to approve you).

AICB level II manual isn't so bad but I would advise getting a copy of the BPP AAT revision companion for units 1-4 to ensure that you can do everything without issue. If you can do the AAT levels 1-4 then you'll sail through ICB level II.

The worry when people ask the question that you did originally is always that they have believed what they are being told by the training companies. Your actually coming to this with some knowledge and experience but a good many assume that the qualifications alone will open doors that unfortunately they don't... The AAT ones might but few of the others do.

I've posted a few messages over the last few days about letters to accountants and general guidance / opinions on career paths. To have a glance just click on my name and follow the links to some of my recent posts. (The one to Lawason about accountants letters might be of interest to you).

I would hold off trying to get any clients until you're fully AICB. You don't have to, but you may find it difficult to get PII insurance without it plus you'll be hot with the MLR expenses.

Take my advice and do the AAT revision companion. It will show you how good your bookkeeping skills actually are and emphasise area's where you might need to improve.

And of course, keep reading the posts on this site. You don't have to contribute (although it's always good to hear from people) but you will find that no matter how much experience you have you will pick up something that you didn't know... Or get a different angle on something that you did know (see the VAT thread incorporating a technical debate between Shiela, Phillip, Bill and myself).

By the way, there's no need to wait until the end of your course to join the ICB. Your going to have to pay for the exams anyway so you might as well get them out of the way now if you feel from doing the AAT book that you're ready.

Good luck with the course, the exams and membership.

hope to talk soon,

Shaun.

-- Edited by Shamus on Tuesday 2nd of February 2010 10:49:28 AM

peter1162 · Veteran Member

Dear Shaun

Thank you very much for taking the time to reply to me.

That is the course that I am doing Sage Certificate in computerised bookkeeping.

The way forward does not sound too bad to me, since I am finding the course not too bad at all.

Even although I cannot actually practice until I get my certificate, is there any way that I can get some work to do to obtain experience in bookkeeping. Since there is never anything better than hands on experience. It is always good to do the theory but the actual practice is what you really require. I would be willing to do some work for free, just to obtain the experience and get the feedback on my efforts.

Where do I find the AAT revision companion, since it sounds like a good way to test yourself.

The course tutir told me that I join the ICB as part of the course, so will enjoy having a look at the web site once I become a member.

Thank you once again for all your assistance.

KInd regards

Peter

peter1162 · Veteran Member

Dear Shaun

I have just read one of your repliesith great interest. I quite liked the Home Learning College, and did not get the hard sell.

Where do I find BPP AAT revision companion for units 1-4, that sounds like a good revision guide.

Once I have got my AICB what is the next best thing to do to keep on getting more qualified in Bookkeeping and which is the best distance learning company to use, since it sounds like I have have paid over the odds for Home Learning.

Thank you for replying to my questions it is a great help to have someone to bounce ideas off of.

Kind regards

Peter

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi again Peter,

I don't think that people tend to complain too much about the quality of the home learning colleges tuition, they just have serious problems with the prices which generally necessitate the sale of a kidney and one of your children.

The revision companion is available on Amazon. You can find it on Ebay but people tend to add extortionate delivery costs. As it's bookkeeping rather than tax or Payroll it doesn't have to be the latest version. 2006 or 2007 versions should be fine if you can find one.

Try this link which will take you to the 2006 version :

http://www.amazon.co.uk/AAT-Units-Foundation-Revision-Companion/dp/0751732281/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1265111000&sr=8-1

have a play around with the search as sometimes newer version become available cheaper than the old ones.

Getting experience is a bit of a nightmare. As you suspect, if you haven't got experience you'll never get past the recruiters intray. Up until a couple of years ago you used to be able to pay accountancy practices to take you on as a trainee but the government banned the practice emphasising that you have to be paid at least the minimum wage... So of course now it's become near impossible to get a job as practices only seem to be interested in paying minimum wage to people who already have the experience and qualifications.

Do you have any family or friends that own their own businesses? How about local charities or clubs? Be prepared to do a lot of phoning around before you get a bite from a charity as I know that at least one accountancy practice around by me is keeping their staff busy and trained up during this downturn by doing freebies for local charities.

If I were you I would give the ICB a call on 0845 060 2345 to ensure that what your tutor is telling you about membership is correct. Do your course fee's also incorporate initial membership fee's of the ICB? Why hasn't your course provider told you about the changes meaning that you have to take the ICB manual exams as well as the computerised?

The ICB website is : http://www.bookkeepers.org.uk/Introduction

Is ICB actually where you want to be??? Its great for self employment but if you want to go into business (Practice or corporate) you should really be looking at either AAT or CAT... Just go on the Reed or Totaljobs websites and see if you ever find an employer looking for ICB or IAB?

There's an old joke that I think that is very apt :

Q: How can you tell that a training provider is lying to you?

A: Their mouths moving!

As mentioned above, just check the situation with the ICB to ensure that their understanding matches to the home learning colleges.

Talk later,

Shaun.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Just reading the HLC website, the course actually states :

You will also be ready to sit The Institute Of Certified Book-Keepers (ICB) Certificate (Level II), awarded by the Institute of Certified Book-Keepers the largest Book-Keeping association in the world with over 150,000 members.

The paper is sat at home and will be followed up with a telephone interview from the ICB.

On completion you can upgrade to Associate member and use the letters AICB after your name.

If you read that quickly it gives the impression that the course is something to do with the ICB but if you read it again objectively it actually says nothing about the HLC having anything to do with your ICB membership. Just that once you've taken the HLC course you will be ready to sit the exams with the ICB.... Sneaky.

peter1162 · Veteran Member

Dear Shaun

Once again thank you very much for your reply.

My cunning plan was to get myself the education to do my own bookkeeping for the business that we are about to start and then I discovered there was potential to make money with bookkeeping.

Hence I am interested in setting up a bookkeeping business, and runing it. It should be just about in time for the recession to finish (well maybe). I would like to keep on taking qualifications and possibly keep expanding.

Gven that sort of ambition what would be my best route for membership for the long term? This gives me a road map of where I want to be.

Thanking you in anticipation.

Kind regards

Peter

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Peter,

from the description of what your looking to achieve I would say that a good road map to follow would be :

ICB level I manual

ICB Level II computerised - Making you AICB (comp)

ICB Level II Manual - Making uou AICB

buy PII through Trafalgar (ICB's pet insurers)
Note : get the cheapest you can as it's unlikely that you'll get much income at first

Get a practicing certificate from the ICB

You're now set up and covered for MLR.

At a later stage think about where you want your career to go. The above should be able to give you some exposure to bookkeeping and may prove to be a good business. The next level might be to swap allegiances to the AAT.

If you've got experience and your over 21 you should be able to start AAT studies at intermediate level. If you go all the way through to MAAT you get exemption from taking the ICB level III exam so can just become MICB if you want.

If you want to take it further MAAT will exempt you from the first three papers with the ACCA. If you've got to this stage funded by being a self employed bookkeeper then the likelyhood is that you'll now be on first name terms with a few accountants. That makes moving further up the food chain easier as you should be able to get some work supervised by them so that you can get your training records signed off. (Being a self employed bookkeeper does not count as experience towards accountancy qualifications unless you are doing so in a supervised capacity).

Right, just taken you from trainee bookkeeper to accountant in a few sentences. If only the actual route was so easy!

Just thought of another one about training providers.

Q: What do you call a thousand dead training providers?

A: A good start.

Talk later Peter,

Shaun.

Neil · Senior Member

Hi Shaun

Another very useful post. Thank you.

Personally, I'd written off the idea of going the accountancy route because I'm now 50 and didn't fancy working in a firm. However, the way you put it makes it sound more palatable.

I'm interested to see that you don't predict much initial income from a BK practice and I know you've written a lot on setting up although I haven't got round to reading your posts on this yet.

Would you think there is any benefit for a BK novice in taking a part time job in accounts or would I be better off sticking to my own skills (and a higher income) to make up the income shortfall part time?

Cheers

Neil

Wella · Expert

I am in a similar position to Neil.

Since doing the studying for bookkeeping, it dawned on me that I was more interested in accountancy than I thought I would be and have considered going down the ACCA route.

Like Neil, I was born in an era when Elvis was King (long live the King), Hula Hoops were the latest craze (not the MSG filled reconstituted snack) and summers were longer. Starting a completely new career path which involves a long commitment in time and finances didn't seem practical.

It would be interesting to hear Shauns view

Bill

-- Edited by Wella on Wednesday 3rd of February 2010 01:28:28 PM

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Neil,

unfortunately if you listen to training companies they would have us all believe that there are hundreds of thousands of business crying out for bookkeeping services and hardly anyone to fulfill their needs. The reality is somewhat different with many experienced bookkeepers struggling to find work.

I'm 48 with 49 creeping up fast! By training and experience I'm actually a banker (head office, not branch stuff). Accountancy goes hand in hand with my current skill set so I'm lucky that I can flit and change between the two which I have been doing for the past few years. However, in order to get my practicing certificate from the ACCA at some stage post qualification I'm going to have to either (a) live on peanuts for a couple of years and work as a trainee or (b) have my bookkeeping work supervised by an accountant for two years.

The question that you have to ask yourself is, in the long run which path is more beneficial to you? In my case I don't like that my income is dictated by a small number of banks. I'm adding a second string to my bow rather than throwing the bow away and getting a different one.

If you can I would milk your existing career until you can't get work in that arena but at the same time get your qualifications and work on getting a few small businesses whose books you can do for them to gain experience.

If the bookkeeping takes off, which indeed sometimes it does, you can always jump from one ship to the other then work on trying to get further up the tree. If it doesn't take off then you still have your existing career to fall back on.

If you do decide to go down the Accountancy route you can do the ACCA whilst working in another industry but there's a time limit of 10 years between registration and becoming qualified. There are 14 exams to pass. The sittings are twice a year and you can take up to 4 exams in a sitting... However, whilst some do it faster most people studying everyday will take about five years to get through all the exams... I've just taken my finals after seven but I've missed several sittings due to work.

Written a bit more there than you actually asked.

talk later,

Shaun.

Neil · Senior Member

You might have written more than you intended but it did answer my uncertainty about accountancy. That's definitely too long for me. I could probably get a novel published in that time!

I don't really have much choice about staying in my current field. I've been working on fixed term contracts for a while and it looks like I won't get another. There is a slim chance but it's not something you'd bet a mortgage on.

I was really just trying to determine whether to look for part time work using my scientific background or at something that would expose me to accounting.

Cheers

Neil