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Post Info TOPIC: About time we had an intellectual discussion.


Master Book-keeper

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About time we had an intellectual discussion.


Maslow's theories.... discuss.



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Joanne

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Master Book-keeper

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To help you along a little

IMG_4616.JPG



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Joanne

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Ooh, nice topic biggrin

seems wierd doesn't it that the one from the top is the need to be loved but the one at the top is the realisation that we don't need the approval of others. We need only to the approval of ourselves.

the theories become easier to comprehend from a business perspective when compared to the motivtional aspects of Herzbergs hygene theory.

For a more complete picture try working through these.

Image result for hygiene theory
Have fun,

Shaun.



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Shaun

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Master Book-keeper

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Way above my head Joanne, sorry.



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John

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Leger wrote:

Way above my head Joanne, sorry.


I was out as soon as I saw the word 'intellectual'



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Doug

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Methinks people may be taking Joanne's post a little too seriously. The key part being the additional base layer to the pyramid.

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Vince M Hudd - Soft Rock Software

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I understand Maslows hierarchy and how it relates to the psycology behind base motivations and its importance in management theory.

I don't understand the toilet paper?... UNLESS... we are having a site game of where did they hide all the toilet paper....

is it in Tesco's


Image result for tesco toilet paper empty shelves

its not in Tesco's

Is it in Sainsbury's

Image result for sainsburystoilet paper empty shelves

Its not in Sainsbury's

Is it in Lidl

...f*ck knows, you wouldn't catch me dead in there...



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Shaun

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Master Book-keeper

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Do'h. I even googled Maslow's Theory to see if it would help me understand it better.

Well done Joanne.



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John

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The one that really helps and EVRYONE in this business should know is porters five forces. Its like being given a crystal ball as when you look at businesses, you ponder the five forces and then think. "Yer doomed mate".

I suppose throw in there the Boston consulting group matrix, mendelows matrix, a bit of the three E's and a smidgen of SWOT analysis and you've got a pretty good management consultants bag of tricks at your disposal.

I find theories like Maslow to be more stating the obvious but when you know it exists you look at real life and relate it back.

Its not really a methodology that you employ to get from A to B but rather a methodology that when you are at B you understand how and why you went from A.

In real terms it looks at why we do what we do in a world where most people are simply asking how to do something.



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Shaun

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I swear by Pareto"s 80:20 theory, and so often 80% of income is from 20% of items we sell, 80% if profit more or less from 20% of the items we sell.
Now I'm convinced 80% of the UKs hand sanitiser had been bought by 20% if the people!

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I think in this case it's probably more like 90/10 (along with the loo roll and pasta).

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Vince M Hudd - Soft Rock Software

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VinceH wrote:

Methinks people may be taking Joanne's post a little too seriously. The key part being the additional base layer to the pyramid.


Quite!biggrinbiggrin



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Joanne

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Shamus wrote:

The one that really helps and EVRYONE in this business should know is porters five forces. Its like being given a crystal ball as when you look at businesses, you ponder the five forces and then think. "Yer doomed mate".

I suppose throw in there the Boston consulting group matrix, mendelows matrix, a bit of the three E's and a smidgen of SWOT analysis and you've got a pretty good management consultants bag of tricks at your disposal.

I find theories like Maslow to be more stating the obvious but when you know it exists you look at real life and relate it back.

Its not really a methodology that you employ to get from A to B but rather a methodology that when you are at B you understand how and why you went from A.

In real terms it looks at why we do what we do in a world where most people are simply asking how to do something.


Oh yep, used most of those more in my past life, a must for any businesses including our own, although you will be surprised that most just think a SWOT covers everything! I do use some currently, albeit not in any 'organised' way generally if that makes sense. Increasingly important.



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Joanne

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Did anyone who looked at or used the theories Shaun mentioned, also look into where they came from ?

Maslow was an American psychologist so its maybe not so surprising that he developed a theory that culminated in the self , and followed on from a need or desire to be recognised by others. I wonder how the theory would apply though, to different cultures where the focus is more on the family and the community rather than on the individual. Maslows hierarchy is quoted in a lot of psychology and management text- books, but there isnt a great deal of empirical evidence to support it.

Herzberg is another American psychologist, with a theory that there were things at work that motivated an employee and things that prevented dissatisfaction, like empowerment and accountability. McLelland was also an American psychologist, with a theory about needs for achievement, power, affiliation and avoidance.

Personally, I liked Mayos (an Australian psychologist) theory - that managers needed to take more interest in their employees and in creating a happy and positive social environment in the workplace, rather than just expecting pay or promotion to motivate them.

Also, Mayos theory probably works well with Banduras theories about self-efficacy and that people can learn behaviour through modelling the behaviour that they see around them. Bandura was a Canadian-American, from an Eastern-European family. There was an important lesson in Banduras early studies on the development of aggressive behaviour, and how it might easily be modelled (although the experiments were based on children).

There is a lot on the psychology of behaviour outwith management theories and which was based on adults though, and its very much worth a read.



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Lorraine



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Lorry10 wrote:

Did anyone who looked at or used the theories Shaun mentioned, also look into where they came from ?


Yes.

Also know Shaun has.



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Joanne

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That's interesting. Did you think any of the theories were flexible enough to address gender differences or age-related differences ?



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Lorraine



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Being contentious here but I do not believe that there is such a thing as gender or age related differences. Only gender or age related biases propogated by societal stereotyping that program children from birth into a gender based stereotype and with that societies view towards age.

In Japan for instance age is respected as bringing wisdom where in the west it is regarded with somewhat less respect.

Your earlier respect for Elton Mayo is a good example of societal stereotyping in that his approach works only for a subservient workforce where power is given by acceptance of hierarchy reinforced by creation of pseudo groups of individuals perceived to be one's peers.

As a consultant I see it in the workplace a lot where people are so concerned about their place within a firms hierarchy that they miss completely that the hierarchy itself has no importance beyond the walls of that firm. In my own life I have seen it where I have chased a management grade only for years later to pass the site where the firms building once stood which makes one ponder the importance of temporary aspiration where for Mayo that seems to be the ultimate goal.

You see it with a lot of the theorists that they perceive the workforce as subjects as if studying animals or insects, not in any way preceiving such subjects as their equals. Yet I for one see no biological diffeence between the subject and the observer. Only the difference in how they were raised, educated and allowed to beleive.

As noted by Joanne, I have read the works of all of the management theorists, some great, some not so much, and some who just did not see how their theories might be implemented... A little like Einstein not seeing how E=MC squared might be implemented.

The key I feel is reading all of them and comparing and contrasting to develop ones own approach rather than looking at the works of any as being in any way a roadmap to be followed to a given end.

Of Mayo I feel that his theories work for the sheep, but not work for the wolves.

All the best,

Shaun.






-- Edited by Shamus on Tuesday 31st of March 2020 03:07:44 AM

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Shaun

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Hi Shaun,

I was referring to the fact that women may want to take time out of a career path to have a family - that's quite a big gender difference and a choice that has a significant impact on career and work.

And I think that there is age-related cognitive and physical decline that can affect the type of work people are able to do as they get older that might force a career or job change then, particularly considering the increase to the state retirement age. Is it about 50 or 55 years in the UK that the fire brigade need to retire from duty ? And there are other physically demanding jobs - carers, labourers, delivery people, offshore oilfield workers. And what about loss of manual dexterity as you age? Surgeons, for example.

I personally wouldn't have thought that Mayo's approach was only for a subservient workforce - Mayo's theory was about manager's taking more of an interest in workers and their social needs, and valuing their opinions. I have seen a number of different workplaces, too. One in particular I can think of is project based, non-profit and they are a pleasure to work with. Everyone is valued, and better than that, they care. The workforce aren't subservient - they are just genuinely interested in the work that they do. And the director is very much needed as a co-ordinator, as a single point of contact with third-parties for financial issues, and internally for communications, not due to a hierarchy. My view would be that its the American management theorists who seem to be encouraging a hierarchy and competitiveness within the workplace.

Fortunately, I left that sort of workplace behind some time ago when I made the conscious decision to only work with organisations that I agree with, and whose work ethics and values are in line with my own. And its a much happier and more satisfying experience overall, I have to say.



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Lorraine



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Hi Lorraine,

As I say, women are absolutely no different to men. I've raised my son on his own since he was 18 months old. Many men do and have to say, I think that we do a pretty good job of it. Absolutely no reason at all for women to single themselves out on that one. Try another, you are not going to convince me that women are in any way different in the workplace to men except from their own perceptions. Have a read up on Imposter Syndrome from the work of Pauline Clance and Suzanne Imes (1978) which look into the psycology behind why women in particular think the way that they do.

Your statement about age related cognitive and physical decline again stereotypes common perceptions and feeds into age related bias which is very prevelent in the UK workplace. As with other parts of the body the brain is a muscle that needs to be flexed to keep it working to its full. The issue is not that peoples cognitive ability declines but rather people become lazy, they stop finding the wonder in things or asking why. Once they stop then decline starts. Personally I was early fifties before I got my letters, and only passed my Masters in economics with one of the worlds top ten Uni's a couple of years ago.

Both arguements look to stereotype in creating a perceived norm so in themselves creating bias based on societal expectations. i.e. women raise children and you're over the hill at 40. Rather than perpetuating the myths consider what makes you have those misconceptions. Why did you develop those embedded truths that you accept as given where other societies do not.

Think that we'll agree to differ on Mayo as the most subservient workforces are those who do not realise that they are. Differing is the great thing about debating theorists in that we have thought through their theories and take away from them different things especially when comparing and contrasting against other theorists. For example, Johnson, Scholes and Whittington to my mind are not theorists or great management thinkers. They simply stand on the shoulders of better men and bring theories of others together. Without reading all of the others people wouldn't see that.

For me the god of theorists is Micheal Porter. The theories are relatively simple yet put accross in such a way that really makes you look at companies as though looking into their future.

I find that banks and other financial institutions ethics tend to align with my thinking and try wherever possible to work with those but on occassional I work with smaller entities and have to say that the number of times that there is a distinct difference in attitude between FTSE 350 companies and FTSE 100 ones in that you see ethics as being a banner of convenience rather than a standard of existence.

kindest regards,

Shaun.

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Shaun

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Hello again Shaun,

Yes, perhaps it sounded like I was generalising when I said women may want to take time out of a career to have a family, since men may want or need to also. But, it is always women who must take some time off for pre-birth and post-birth, and deal with any career consequences. And its more usually the case that its women who do the childcare, but not always, like you say.

I'm not surprised at anyone getting qualifications in their fifties (I certainly plan to), age-related cognitive decline starts much later. Although it may leave a lot of ability for some, there are chemical and biological changes in the brain through aging. I don't think you can just blame any age-related changes on laziness, or generalise your personal experience to the remainder of the population. There are genetic influences that vary from person to person, and diet, lifestyle, that all play an influence too. I don't think women are over the hill at 40 or any particular age - ermm.....that would include me, wouldn't it? Why would I work (3 jobs) and study (another degree, more accounting qualifications), if, as you suggest, I have an embedded belief that I must be past it now?

Physical decline due to aging, is experienced by everyone, discounting the affects of work/hobbies/lifestyle that can bring on certain issues earlier. I think a poster on this forum even mentioned as much regarding their eyesight and using a computer. I know I suffer from arthritic-like issues already, I have used a computer through all of my working life and studies. No, it wouldn't stop me, but it might just slow me down a little as I get older, if it gets worse. If there is no physical decline through aging and its all just stereotyping and bias - why do they retire all those firemen early ?

Its a pity that you don't want to believe that I have witnessed a working example of Mayo's (or as close as you can probably get) in action, because that could sound like stereo-typing and bias on your part in making assumptions about a workplace that you have never seen, and about people that you have never met, and about my ability to observe and interpret the dynamics of the workplace accurately.

Your opinion may be that they are subservient, and that they are just not aware of that fact, but I think there are one or two PHD's in that workplace that would be a bit offended by that- they are experts in their field.

Michael Porter ? Laters, Shaun. For me, just now, its lunchtime.



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Lorry10 wrote:

Hello again Shaun,

Yes, perhaps it sounded like I was generalising when I said women may want to take time out of a career to have a family, since men may want or need to also. But, it is always women who must take some time off for pre-birth and post-birth, and deal with any career consequences. And its more usually the case that its women who do the childcare, but not always, like you say.

Male of female it is a choice to have children. A situation that I have often encountered in the workplace is the anger of career women towards those who choose a family expecting to be treated as though they worked without gap and step back in exactly where they left off. No, that is unfair on women in the workplace. By all means get back into it, work hard and rebuild position but one cannot simply expect to step out and step back as some do.

I've also sat in meetings where it's being decided who to promote and encountered positive discrimination where it is suggested that some people may be promoted over more worthy candidates in order to meet corporate quota's. If I were a woman or ethnic minority I would be seriously annoyed at being promoted based on either gender or race over ability not least as that immediately undermines one's credibility with those who work for you. And if I were stepped over for such reason my CV would be with recruiters the same day.

I'm not surprised at anyone getting qualifications in their fifties (I certainly plan to), age-related cognitive decline starts much later.

But your arguement was based on people of working age and there isn't a lot of working age left after your fifties.

Although it may leave a lot of ability for some, there are chemical and biological changes in the brain through aging.

If the brain is becoming lazy change it. Personally in order to get into studying accountancy I learnt to write and speak Thai which opened up parts of the brain that had been gathering dust since my school days and gave a boost to my overall ability to learn.

I don't think you can just blame any age-related changes on laziness, or generalise your personal experience to the remainder of the population. There are genetic influences that vary from person to person, and diet, lifestyle, that all play an influence too.

Diet and lifestyle are personal choices. Maybe I should have used the word complacency rather than lazyness

I don't think women are over the hill at 40 or any particular age - ermm.....that would include me, wouldn't it? Why would I work (3 jobs) and study (another degree, more accounting qualifications), if, as you suggest, I have an embedded belief that I must be past it now?

You misunderstand. I was demonstrating societies view that over 40 you are seen by many as past being able to change roles. As someone older I am certainly not argueing the case that it is right

Physical decline due to aging, is experienced by everyone, discounting the affects of work/hobbies/lifestyle that can bring on certain issues earlier. I think a poster on this forum even mentioned as much regarding their eyesight and using a computer. I know I suffer from arthritic-like issues already, I have used a computer through all of my working life and studies. No, it wouldn't stop me, but it might just slow me down a little as I get older, if it gets worse. If there is no physical decline through aging and its all just stereotyping and bias - why do they retire all those firemen early ?

The quality of your screen matters a lot when using a computer. Try to only use Iiyama's with 1ms response and a high refresh rate attached to a good quality graphics card such as a GTX750-ti or higher. Never, ever use laptops for long periods. That said, from my reading there is no direct link between macular degeneration and cognitive degeneration. Absolutely no idea why they retire firemen early when steel workers and (in the past) miners worked until normal retirement age. And farmers often work well past it.

Its a pity that you don't want to believe that I have witnessed a working example of Mayo's (or as close as you can probably get) in action, because that could sound like stereo-typing and bias on your part in making assumptions about a workplace that you have never seen, and about people that you have never met, and about my ability to observe and interpret the dynamics of the workplace accurately.

I didn't say that I do not believe what you believe that you have witnessed. I am saying that I fundamentally disagree with Mayo's approach which is a building block of collective responsibility and the self subsumed within corporate hierachy given false impresions of relative importance.

Your opinion may be that they are subservient, and that they are just not aware of that fact, but I think there are one or two PHD's in that workplace that would be a bit offended by that- they are experts in their field.

I think that a lot of people no matter their education do not think outside the box and become quite insular to the companies that they become embedded within. A PHd working for a single company is like a caged bird. Have these PHd's considered working as consultants or non executive directors? (I assume that their PHd's are in economics?). I've actually pondered a PHd next myself as an MBA is just a sideways step from an MSc. Only issue at my age is commiting to five to seven years of study but at the same time two years post MSc. I'm already gnashing at the bit to get back at it again. Just the way I'm wired.

Michael Porter ? Laters, Shaun. For me, just now, its lunchtime.

Michael Porter, yes. A residant at the Harvard Business School. Very much big picture thinking such as the influence of Governments and market forces.

To quote Gordon Gecko. Lunch is for wimps. biggrin


Hi Lorraine,

replies embedded,

Shaun.



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Shaun

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Hey, you can't say that Shaun.

You have never seen my lunch!

I can't address everything right now, as I need to check in with 2 family members who are self-isolating to make sure they are ok today.

But you can be sure I will, lol.

Laters,

L.


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Lorry10 wrote:

Hey, you can't say that Shaun.

You have never seen my lunch! I dont think he was saying their was anything wrong with your lunchwink

I can't address everything right now, as I need to check in with 2 family members who are self-isolating to make sure they are ok today.

But you can be sure I will, lol.

Laters,

L.




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Master Book-keeper

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What on earth have I startedwink

Must admit I did think you may be were referring to Clance and Imes in your post at 22.45 Monday Lorraine, but it appears you mean wider issues.

No time to join in just now. HOPING that my work load reduces after 8th! Am exhausted if nothing else, but it just keeps coming in!



-- Edited by Cheshire on Wednesday 1st of April 2020 12:26:21 PM

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Joanne

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Hello Shaun,

Thoughts so far -

Male of female it is a choice to have children. Not always, accidents and unplanned pregnancies do happen, and people can make mistakes in relationships or think they will last longer than they do, then end up as sole caregivers to children. Life isn't always that simple.

A situation that I have often encountered in the workplace is the anger of career women towards those who choose a family expecting to be treated as though they worked without gap and step back in exactly where they left off. No, that is unfair on women in the workplace. By all means get back into it, work hard and rebuild position but one cannot simply expect to step out and step back as some do. This sounds like you have already seen then that Maslows hierarchy, upon which other theories were built, may not be flexible enough to account for maternity or paternity career breaks - the person loses ground on the hierarchy. This was my initial question, I asked whether opinion was that the theories were flexible enough .

But your arguement was based on people of working age and there isn't a lot of working age left after your fifties 1. No, you limited the age range to working age in your initial response, to which I then commented (although I can see why you assumed working ages). Maslows hierarchy, which was the start of this thread, wasnt introduced for workplaces. It was a humanist psychology theory that was later borrowed by management theorists, I think they may have even added the triangular hierarchy which I dont believe was how Maslow originally envisioned his theory working. 2. Back to age matters, it sounded like you believed that I only meant older people when I initially referred to age-related differences. I also have questions as to how valid Maslows theory is for the young. Would you say that a well-cared for baby or child has self-actualised ? He/she could tick all the boxes on the hierarchy its just that the food, safety, belongingness, and recognition are all provided by the family or caregivers. Its not quite what Maslow meant though, is it ? 3. The state pension age could increase to 70 years one day, especially after recent economic events, a fair bit of time from early fifties to still be working (at least it sure seems like it to me ).

If the brain is becoming lazy change it. Personally in order to get into studying accountancy I learnt to write and speak Thai which opened up parts of the brain that had been gathering dust since my school days and gave a boost to my overall ability to learn. Sorry Shaun, but I dont believe parts of the brain are ever unused or inaccessible, not unless there is brain damage in an individual. My view would be that you formed new neural pathways or altered existing ones by learning something new. The brain isnt a muscle, its an organ. But well done on learning Thai, that must have been challenging.

Diet and lifestyle are personal choices. Maybe I should have used the word complacency rather than laziness. Sometimes. But there is also education and access to information as contributing factors, and knowledge about whats good for you is important. Smoking was once advertised as a diet aid for women. Milk was long promoted as a nutritional food source because it was accessible, but research doesnt support the dairy industrys claims about how good it is for you. Then there is economics, and time, of course some people cant afford good food (or enough food) and some people are very busy with work and their lives, and end up just going for processed food. Its likely the intake of processed food will increase during the pandemic, but because of external circumstances, not personal choice.

You misunderstand. I was demonstrating societies view that over 40 you are seen by many as past being able to change roles.

I'm part of that society, so I guess I was included either way. For feedback, the reason I understood your post as referring directly to me at points were due to comments you made such as

Your statement about age related cognitive and physical decline again stereotypes common perceptions and feeds into age related bias which is very prevelent in the UK workplace. And

Rather than perpetuating the myths consider what makes you have those misconceptions.

Remember that I used the term decline - that doesnt mean individuals would be incapable of getting qualifications or holding down a job. I only said that for certain professions and jobs aging might lead to having to change what they did for a living - particularly for physically demanding jobs and those requiring high levels of manual dexterity.

The quality of your screen matters a lot when using a computer. Try to only use Iiyama's with 1ms response and a high refresh rate attached to a good quality graphics card such as a GTX750-ti or higher. Never, ever use laptops for long periods. That said, from my reading there is no direct link between macular degeneration and cognitive degeneration. Absolutely no idea why they retire firemen early when steel workers and (in the past) miners worked until normal retirement age. And farmers often work well past it. 1. Thank you, the eyesight issue I mentioned was on someone elses post but thats useful, I use a laptop all the time what is the issue there ? If you want to share it, I think it may have been Jay that mentioned this, although he is retiring. I mentioned arthritic-like symptoms of the hands. 2. I do know why they retire firemen early - because their joints wear out. Just like older people experience, but later in life. The body doesnt repair as efficiently as you get older. 3. Miners ? I come from a mining community. It was about money and economics. Numbers of them died horribly later in life from lung diseases, and compensation for families wasnt introduced until 1999. The next generation got to see exactly what their job would probably do to them one day, but people needed the work, and health and safety for those workers was poor at times.

I didn't say that I do not believe what you believe that you have witnessed. I am saying that I fundamentally disagree with Mayo's approach which is a building block of collective responsibility and the self subsumed within corporate hierachy given false impresions of relative importance. Not in the example I refer to, it consists of groups of different types of experts and support staff working together for a common goal. They are all working in a field that they are very much interested in and enjoy, and its great to be around a workforce like that. False impressions of relative importance ? That just wouldnt work on this particular group they wouldnt be any more interested in that kind of thing than I would be. Yes, they have worked elsewhere lecturing in their subject at university, and working on research. They are currently contributing to a project, and that contribution is limited to the length of the project.

I've actually pondered a PHd next myself as an MBA is just a sideways step from an MSc. Only issue at my age is commiting to five to seven years of study but at the same time two years post MSc. I'm already gnashing at the bit to get back at it again. Just the way I'm wired.

If thats your inclination you should go for it, Shaun. And all the very best with it.

Replies embedded,

Lorraine







-- Edited by Lorry10 on Thursday 2nd of April 2020 02:51:58 AM

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I'd forgotten to revisit this one then sitting on the toilet reading New Statesman came accross an interesing article about the changing mind (from a Neuroscientists guide to ageing well, Daniel Leviton, Penguin).

What I was saying earlier about learning a language in order to open up parts of the mind is actually completely legitimate (I knew it was as I am the evidence but din't have any backup). In the same way that after a serious brain injury the brain rewires itself, so by stepping well outside you comfort zone and doing something such as learning another language has the same effect. The brain physically rewires itself.

The excert in new stateman was an interesting read explaining things like why some people as they age cannot remember who even close relatives are but are still able to play the piano.

Interestingly the biggest change seems to be in one's 40's where the brain becomes more concerned with comtemplating our own thoughts than taking in new information.

I was around 40 when I learnt Thai and 44 when I started studying accountancy so the time when the brain should have been going one way it got rewired to go another.

One interesting snippet from the article. "The only thing that doing soduku improves is one's ability to play Soduku". That bit made me laugh.

Overall message from the book relayed in the article is "free yourself from whatever stops you from trying new things" (lol, sounds like a self help book rather than a text on Neuroscience!).

Shaun.

p.s. The mining industry treated their people extremely well and was very, very safety conscious. I can only talk about mining from the late sixties until it didn't exist as British coal didn't exist so if you experience is from pre 70's miners or the private open cast pits that appeared in the 90's then I have no knowledge of those.

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It sure does Shaun and until you read the book in full, you can't be certain that it aint. I take it the author is American? Please..... don't tell that its another bestselling pop psychology book, with little or no research evidence to support it ? They are a dime a dozen.

The brain physically rewires itself after a serious injury ??? No neuroscientist would make such a bold claim. Not when they have all had to study conditions like aphasia and agnosia and how the earliest cases cited in neuroscience, and from where much of the knowledge about areas of the brain was gained , werebased on the memory or cognitive deficits experienced by individuals who had unfortunately experienced brain trauma or brain surgery. He may have said that there were some compensatory mechanisms post-injury, or as individuals age, but surely he didnt claim that the brain would re-wire from serious brain injury?

And sure, so you learned Thai in your 40's, Shaun. Even if it was true that individuals become more contemplative of their own thoughts during that period (and how anyone could evidence that scientifically I will be really interested to hear more on from you - it sounds anecdotal) that doesn't exclude the ability to form new memories, nor learn new patterns of behaviour, does it? You didn't re-wire to learn Thai - you didn't need to. You learn new information every day, most folks do. In fact, as a member of the animal kingdom, if you weren't able do that, you just wouldnt be able to survive, unassisted. And are you really arguing now that there are age-related cognitive changes ? And that you addressed yours by learning a language ? Before, you appeared to be pretty adamant that there wasn't, it was just society's discriminatory and biased view.

Playing the piano is controlled by a different area of the brain from facial recognition, and is a very different capability, so no surprises there either. I will say that the research on left and right hemisphere development that has been carried out on pianists (this is completely unrelated to aging) is very interesting, and a surprise for neuroscientists, methinks. Have a good read, if you are genuinely interested in psychology and neuroscience.

Incase you werent aware, it was Trinity College, Dublin and Edinburgh University that published research that suggested memory improvements and better logical processing could be achieved as one ages, through practising puzzles like Sudoku, or crosswords it sounds like it could be that research that the author is trying to mock.

Sounds like you picked the right article to leave in the bathroom and thanks for the context.

As for your comments on the mining industry - have you been keeping reading material from British Coal Board in the loo as well ? After all, they wouldn't be the first employer to big up their health and safety procedures to the outside world, and deny any responsibility for employees' work-related health issues. I guess the question you need to ask yourself Shaun, is If health and safety was as good for the miners as you say, then why was the total compensation pay-outs for the damage done to their health the biggest industrial compensation pay-out in the history of the UK?

Do you not recall this from the news at the time ? The compensation claims involved tens of thousands of miners , and more than ten thousand widowed miners' wives, all who suffered. That's not extremely good nor very, very safety conscious, not by any stretch.

You didn't answer on my query re laptops, which is a pity as I might not have been the only person interested in the answer to that, especially during a UK lockdown.

Ah, well.



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Lorraine



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come on, you can do better than that. You cannot simply disregard / belittle New Statesman because the article doesn't adhere to your way of thinking. That puts the other person on the defensive but if I come out with an equally legitimate arguement from an equally prestigous publication you will simply continue to belittle anything that does not agree to your pre determined perception.

I've also read Solzhenitsyn and Nietzsche on the toilet... surely where you read something makes no difference to what you are reading? You should read whenever opportunity presents itself.

Do you really think that a magazine like that would be reviewing a self help book?

I used the article to reinforce something that I was stating as a fact from personal experience. If you choose not to believe it then such is your perogative. The seed is now planted and at some stage you will have the epiphany that I was right.... Or not.

Of course, I am guilty of selecting an article that confirmed what I had already stated. I had not searched for it but rather read it and then thought, I know the exact arguement that supports so reconveyed it here as further evidence to support what I had already stated.

With the mining industry I do know a lot more first hand. I am not looking to debate that. Did enough of it over Sunday lunch with my father when I was management and he was a pit face engineer. Lets just say that we came away each Sunday with a draw as to whether the demise of the coal industry was more down to Thatcher or the political ambitions of Scargill. One thing never argued though was that the NCB (and subsequently Bristish Coal) did not prioritise safety and staff welfare.

For the laptops, just use google. doesn't need me regurgetating why low refresh rates of on mothboard graphic chipsets are not good for the eyes and laptops in general are more conerned with ensuring that the machines do not overheat when they do not have enough fans so graphical output is not up to the standard of dedicated graphics card running at higher frequencies and better refresh rates.





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Ah.....'room for improvement', is it then ?

The only problem is - I didn't do what you are saying. I questioned views that weren't supported by scientific evidence and that were being declared as facts, and I asked if your interpretation of the neuroscientist s claims that you were quoting, was correct. I also raised that it sounded like the article you were quoting might be mocking research from Scotland and Ireland.

Yes, you used the article to reinforce something that you stated as a fact based on your own personal experience - merely anecdotal then - but only by mentioning a neuroscientist. I would like to hear the scientific research that supports the claim, or at least a bit more evidence than one persons subjective experience and the mention of a magazine article with a neuroscientist mentioned in it, before accepting it as a fact. Please post this, I'd like to read it.

Do I really think that a magazine like that would be reviewing self-help books? - Yes, I think its possible, given the changes in the publication in the last few years. Have you read the book that you refer to now, and is there much scientific evidence in there? Does the author that you quote write self-help books? You said yourself that it sounded like one.

Re - Surely where you read makes no difference. Quite. So why share the toilet details when it wasn't necessary. I guess you will know why you did....

Re miners - you are the first person that I have heard refer to these type of workers as staff, and I grew up in a mining community. Presumably you thought the eventual compensation pay-outs were wrong and undeserved, based on your view that miners health and safety was 'prioritised' by their employer. I agree that it would be a very good idea to leave any debate there, since this forum member, and possibly some others reading (remember how many compensation claims there were, many thousands), witnessed a relative suffering from lung and other health problems before they died, because they had worked in mines. You might just upset someone.

And anyway, you did enough on that on Sunday lunch you said, when you were.....

....I know you were management Shaun, you have mentioned that you worked in management a few times now.

I, on the other hand, was never very interested in being a manager, although I was asked to, a few times. I did however spend a fair bit of time at university studying psychology, including neuropsychology, which is why I know a little bit about it.









-- Edited by Lorry10 on Monday 20th of April 2020 09:05:26 PM

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Lorraine



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Lorry10 wrote:

Re miners - you are the first person that I have heard refer to these type of workers as staff, and I grew up in a mining community. Presumably you thought the eventual compensation pay-outs were wrong and undeserved, based on your view that miners health and safety was 'prioritised' by their employer. I agree that it would be a very good idea to leave any debate there, since this forum member, and possibly some others reading (remember how many compensation claims there were, many thousands), witnessed a relative suffering from lung and other health problems before they died, because they had worked in mines. You might just upset someone.


This debate, although interesting, is a bit too intellectual for me, but I will take issue with this.

Health and safety was paramount, BUT the job itself was, by it's nature, one that caused damage to a miners body.. The compensation claims were for lung disease and vibration white finger, which were a hazard of the job they did, not for lack of health and safety by the NCB.



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John

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Hi John,

Yes, it took a long time didnt it, for them to get that. The miners felt that the risks had been known for some time and that not enough had been done to protect their health in the job, like providing enough masks.

I am aware of several stories about health and safety in the mining area that I was, but I have said I would like to leave this subject now, please. And since I wasnt there, I cant be certain how accurate the accounts were. But some did involve fatalities on site, sadly.

Its a shame you wont join in on the psychology theories there usually is something in psychology for everyone to get interested in, and a lot of research is easily accessible now online. Some theories are more reliable than others of course, so dont believe everything you read, its always best to keep a healthy cynicism and look out for flaws in the studies.



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Lorraine



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I take great exception to a lot of your comments, the one John mentioned particularly. Alongside this particular commen, you seem to ignore the fact that Shaun was brought up in a mining community, which is obvious from the comment he made about his Father.

Plus you keep pulling Shaun up for not answering the points you make the way you think he should make them, yet you have not really added anything much to the discussion.

Plus you do seem to like to direct the conversation and in that condescending manner you have used before.

'' but I have said I would like to leave this subject now, please''

''So why share the toilet details when it wasn't necessary.''

Folk do like to suggest leaving a subject when they are losing an arguement. Plus suggesting someone's comment is unneccesary, is frankly unneccessary, when they make unnecessary comments themselves. We all do, so what?

A 'little knowledge' can be a dangerous thing. As can only having theoretical knowledge rather than knowledge also combined with that gained by being in practice and/or undertaking a role.

You might just be upsetting forum members.





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I have already said why I would like to leave it, Casu. Try and have a little sensitivity, there.

Family members and neighbours worked underground in the mining area where I grew up, not pit-face jobs and not management, they suffered later for it, trust me.

And I guess I am just one of those funny folks that didnt really want to hear about someone on the toilet, in a reply to me.

I did work in my degree subject area for a while thanks, before I moved areas and jobs, and its a shame that you feel that I didnt add anything to this discussion. Feel free to pick up the thread yourself and add something.

And since you are discussing feedback, I feel that some of your posts on the forum sound a bit too aggressive at times and might even deter people from posting further. That didnt seem to be the case with my posts on this thread Shaun replied each time. After all, nowt wrong with a debate and exploring different views on the Time Out thread.



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Lorraine



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Lorry10 wrote:

I have already said why I would like to leave it, Casu. Try and have a little sensitivity, there. Its not about a lack of sensitivity, its about you once again trying to dictate what is said on this forum.

Family members and neighbours worked underground in the mining area where I grew up, not pit-face jobs and not management, they suffered later for it, trust me. Of course, they are the only people to suffer arent they??!!!. Now you sound like a teacher who bemoans their lot of having to take work home....like no other profession ever has to.

And I guess I am just one of those funny folks that didnt really want to hear about someone on the toilet, in a reply to me. Once again trying to dictate what is said on this forum. Maybe you should provide us with a list of likes and dislikes then we know how to keep the conversation safe.

I did work in my degree subject area for a while thanks, before I moved areas and jobs, and its a shame that you feel that I didnt add anything to this discussion. Feel free to pick up the thread yourself and add something. I meant Accountancy. Oh and more to the point - management. You would have been one using the dictatorial style and telling folk what they are allowed to say and when.

And since you are discussing feedback, I feel that some of your posts on the forum sound a bit too aggressive at times and might even deter people from posting further.That didnt seem to be the case with my posts on this thread Shaun replied each time. Shaun is the moderator, I think it is pretty obvious to all why he was responding, you only have to look at his post history. After all, nowt wrong with a debate and exploring different views on the Time Out thread.



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This is possibly the most ironic series of accusations that I have ever had the delight to be on the receiving end of.

Can I go now?



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Lorraine



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Lorry10 wrote:

Its a shame you wont join in on the psychology theories there usually is something in psychology for everyone to get interested in, and a lot of research is easily accessible now online. Some theories are more reliable than others of course, so dont believe everything you read, its always best to keep a healthy cynicism and look out for flaws in the studies.


Psychology is definitely not for me. I had dealings with psychologists in my early life who tried to analyse me, to no avail (wayward child who was always getting into trouble, would have probably been labelled ADHD now) The cure came when I was 12 and got walloped on my bare backside by a deputy headteacher. I found it humiliating and vowed to change, which I did from that day forward. That teacher has my eternal gratitude because goodness knows how I would have turned out otherwise.

There are other situations as well that have made me of the opinion that psychology is a load of sphericals, including a dealing with my son, who had a condition that. although psychological to begin with, became a physical ailment which continued to be treated as psychological. 2 years were wasted before we found that out, which came not from the psychologist but from a clinical Doctor.

You are what you are, an individual who will go through life making good decisions and bad decisions (and goodness knows I've made a fair few of them). I believe I learn from my mistakes most of the time, and indeed some mistakes give you good opportunity to reconsider the direction you're travelling in. That's not to say self help books and psychological theories are per se bad, but each of us is individual. For instance I couldn't be a bull headed businessman, being bombastic and making decisions I know would cause harm to others, as it is my nature to be empathetic to others.



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John, I wont be back on the forum, so no point in posting to me. I participated and I posted - numerous free training courses, answered a few bookkeeping questions, took part in the Time Out thread (and didn't ask any bookkeeping questions of the forum during this time) - all because you asked me to, on the Anti Money Laundering thread in February, saying that the forum was dying. I thought it would be some sort of return for questions that I had had answered in the past.

Do you recall that ? I initially posted in February on the Anti Money Laundering thread due to what appeared to me to be an unfair and heavy-handed approach by two regular forum members towards one new and inexperienced member. The new member never posted on the forum again.

I also posted to see whether the complaints of the regular forum members within that thread were right, but I cant say that I found it to be the case that posters didnt say thank you. I found mostly they did, and sometimes they didnt. It didnt trouble me much when they didnt, it was my choice to post and I could always just leave it the next time if I had felt strongly about it.

What did trouble me though was some of the posts from regulars. Case in point on this thread, prior to yours. And its not the first time, is it, not even in my individual case. Theres another nice example on the Deleted Reconciled Transaction thread in March, which again targets that same new forum member. I didnt think much of the penguin slap/shut up video post on the Time Out thread from a regular, just because I was trying to defend the new member on the Anti Money Laundering thread to them, I just didn't mention that I had seen it.

Whilst I am more than capable of dealing with inappropriate or challenging behaviour or indeed ignoring it as I initially tried doing (after all, it might just have been someone having a bad day), I really dont want to go along with treating others like that. By taking part, it looks like I am. When I tried challenging it the first time on the Anti Money Laundering thread, regulars from the core group on this forum just wouldnt have it. That seems quite oppressive.

And so, and perhaps due to that, here I am again today, 2 months later (and those other times in between) experiencing the same issue. Maybe tomorrow, it will be someone else. But I really do hope not.

Oh,.... and I understood what prompted the 1,2,3 joke, even when not everyone else seemed to, but I could see that you did John.

Its all yours folks -

And good luck.



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Lorraine



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Hi Lorraine

When I tried challenging it the first time on the Anti Money Laundering thread, regulars from the core group on this forum just wouldnt have it. That seems quite oppressive.

Sorry you felt that way, I was one of the regulars who supported Joanne in that thread.

I usually find that if you are challenged over something it's better to examine your own stance rather than initially taking umbrage.

Just today, my wife got upset because I challenged an angry retort she made when I merely commented that I wouldn't be making flatbreads today, as I was too busy.

I then got you always have a go at me, you're not like that with x, y and z.

Maybe it was me in the wrong, maybe it was her. I just shrugged and let it pass.



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Lorry10 wrote:

Ok, I started to respond last night but thought better of it as no matter how logical or respectful the responses have been you have found some way to manipulate, twist and take personal insult at the words of almost everyone that you have spoken to on the site. I am only responding now as I do not want others taking the fallout from your frustrations at believing something and not understanding why others cannot see it.

This thread could have expanded peoples horizons but instead it got sidelined it with imagined issues faced by only by women in the workplace in this business, or accountancy in general.

I am reminded here very much of when someone from the office at a social event very loudly in front of senior management accused me of racism (I had promoted someone above him who on paper was less qualified but she was actually doing all the work) and he went into a diatribe about people like me.

Luckily it was an open to spouses event so I was able to simply smile and when he had finished say "Have you met the wife".

Similarly you are apparently talking from a position of imagined moral and knowledge superiortity without knowing anything about the people that you are confronting.
A couple of correction though I feel are needed

Family members and neighbours worked underground in the mining area where I grew up, not pit-face jobs and not management, they suffered later for it, trust me.

Do you actually know what the pit face is. Are you confusing the Pit Face with the Pit Head.


And I guess I am just one of those funny folks that didnt really want to hear about someone on the toilet, in a reply to me.

It emphasised that it was casual rather than serious reading.

....I know you were management Shaun, you have mentioned that you worked in management a few times now

That was really condescending where I had only mentioned such where it was relevant to the conversation.


Ok, don't know about anyone else but I'm done with this thread. Its no longer about meaningful discussion but just self perpetuating arguement.

From your last reply I am assuming that we have lost you Lorraine. Whilst losing any site contributor is a tragedy sometimes clashes of personalities make peoples continued involvement in a forum impossible to maintain. Your decision is possibly for the best.

We wish you luck with the future, especially the next couple of years which I believe are going to be difficult times indeed for many, if not all of us.

Shaun.



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Shaun

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Lorry10 wrote:

John, I wont be back on the forum, so no point in posting to me . I participated and I posted - numerous free training courses, answered a few bookkeeping questions, took part in the Time Out thread (and didn't ask any bookkeeping questions of the forum during this time) - all because you asked me to, on the Anti Money Laundering thread in February, saying that the forum was dying. I thought it would be some sort of return for questions that I had had answered in the past.

Do you recall that ? I initially posted in February on the Anti Money Laundering thread due to what appeared to me to be an unfair and heavy-handed approach by two regular forum members towards one new and inexperienced member. The new member never posted on the forum again.

I also posted to see whether the complaints of the regular forum members within that thread were right, but I cant say that I found it to be the case that posters didnt say thank you. I found mostly they did, and sometimes they didnt. It didnt trouble me much when they didnt, it was my choice to post and I could always just leave it the next time if I had felt strongly about it.

What did trouble me though was some of the posts from regulars. Case in point on this thread, prior to yours. And its not the first time, is it, not even in my individual case. Theres another nice example on the Deleted Reconciled Transaction thread in March, which again targets that same new forum member. I didnt think much of the penguin slap/shut up video post on the Time Out thread from a regular, just because I was trying to defend the new member on the Anti Money Laundering thread to them, I just didn't mention that I had seen it.

Whilst I am more than capable of dealing with inappropriate or challenging behaviour or indeed ignoring it as I initially tried doing (after all, it might just have been someone having a bad day), I really dont want to go along with treating others like that. By taking part, it looks like I am. When I tried challenging it the first time on the Anti Money Laundering thread, regulars from the core group on this forum just wouldnt have it. That seems quite oppressive.

And so, and perhaps due to that, here I am again today, 2 months later (and those other times in between) experiencing the same issue. Maybe tomorrow, it will be someone else. But I really do hope not.

Oh,.... and I understood what prompted the 1,2,3 joke, even when not everyone else seemed to,

but I could see that you did John.

Its all yours folks -

And good luck.


There you go again.

I take issue with almost all of your comments you have made in this latter post, but will choose just the one. You are wrong. just wrong. Lots of examples of posters not saying thank you or as was pointed out not even acknowledging a response. You clearly did not research it properly and have changed the facts to suit. One of those posters who did not say thank you or acknowledge a post, it was pointed out later was you,after a particularly long and detailed reply. Oppressive. What a lovely dream cookoo land you live in? It seems only some folk are allowed to voice an opinion.

But as you yourself said there is 'nowt wrong with a debate and exploring different views' on any thread.

So why have you flounced off? Its folk who respond like that who perpetuate the issues faced by women in the workplace.

Good luck yourself.



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