Considering re-training as a bookeeper - what should I know? - The Book-keepers Forum (UK)

Bristol_al · Member

Considering re-training as a bookeeper - what should I know?

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Bristol_al wrote:
Hi everyone
I was retired a year ago at the grand age of 31 as I got too sick to work. I'm looking to the future now and would like to retrain in a field where I can be self-employed and work part-time flexibly to suit my health issues. I have zero experience of or qualifications in book keeping and was hoping to get some insight into the reality of life as a self-employed bookkeeper and some advice about how to go about training.

Because of my health I cannot take on a job so the avenue of being employed in an accountancy firm to get some experience is really not open to me.

My first thoughts were to get the qualifications (International Association of Book keepers levels 1-3 through self study). But theoretical knowledge is so far removed from something in practice that I don't know how ro bridge that gap.

Do you think it is possible to retrain completely and go straight into self-employment or is that wildly optimistic? Other than qualifications, what would you suggest I do in terms of getting a real feel for what the job would be like and getting some practical experience?

Is it acceptable to contact a book keeper and ask to do a work placement with them or shadow them for a couple of days?

Many thanks in advance - if there are already very similar threads then apologies and it would be great if you could point me in their direction.

Hi Alice

Time for a reality check and sorry if this sounds harsh.

You cannot learn the realities of the trade by shadowing someone for a couple of days. Plus what exactly would be in it for the person you are shadowing? Apart from the headache of having to take out extra insurance at the very least.

Even getting someone to take you on for a 2 /3 year training contract is hard these days, because the market is completely saturated with bookkeepers and employers can afford to be choosy with the candidates on offer? I could take on an Accountant to do a bookkeepers job as there are folk who are level 4 AAT trained who cannot get work. Being a training practice these days can and is a whole heap of trouble in this litigious world. It takes at least twice as long to get anything done for the same fee/greater expense as you have to spend time answering questions and checking/re-doing the work. BTW there are forward thinking practioners out there who see trainees for what advantages they can bring, but you have to ask yourself why would they spend time on folk who are just going to leave and set up in competition.

Plus, even with experience under your belt, you never know from one day to the next what is going to be thrown at you in terms of tax and compliance issues when you are doing the role.

You state on your profile page '' ibookkeeping as a flexible way to make some money part time and self employed''. Realistically at the rates you will be charging you will be struggling to make any money with the costs of entry now being evidenced in this game, if you are only working part time.

How would it work if you became sick? If you are struggling working for someone else, why would you consider working for yourself is going to ease that? Its hard to make an educated guess here because you do not describe the nature of your illness. OK being self employed you will mostly, but not always, save on the commute, but you will be working many many many more hours as a self employed person that you would as an employee. Plus how would that work when you have pressing deadlines to meet for clients. Let them down once and the best they will do is not pay your bill, the worst sue you, with many issues inbetween.

Being self employed is far harder than anyone who has only been employed will know. Im not saying its not rewarding when you finally make it, but few do make it to the point when they are coining it in in this game (most of those have higher qualifications, or have some real world experience behind them), or indeed making a half decent living from full time work.

There are lots of similar threads on this. Best I can do to point them out is to suggest you spend a few hours searching for them (use google, with name of site, rather than the search option embedded, although the search option will bring some interesting reads in itself, with the correct search term). That will be good practice for searching out the info you need from the complete rot on HMRC website, rather than the dumbed down Gov.uk website for info if you decide to go ahead.

Try reading the VAT act in full and see if you are stil interested. Then try reading it again versus the HMRC VAt guides and see if you can pick out the nonesense that HMRC tell folk is fact v what is actual law and see if you are still interested. If you pass those two challenges then go for it and good luck.

I do balance this with my usual saying of dont let someone say you cannot do something. I of course am not saying you cannot, just that some of your ideas are abit pie in the sky.

Apologies for all the typos, I cannot be bothered correcting them as Ive left my glasses somewhere!

-- Edited by Cheshire on Wednesday 31st of July 2019 11:09:10 PM

Bristol_al · Member

Hi Joanne

Thank you very much for taking the time to respond to my post and being so honest.

I guess I kind of already suspected everything you have said but ignored it because I'm so desperate to be able to work.

I'll not give up quite yet and will continue learning about bookkeeping but without paying to get the qualifications. And do some more research through these forums and the VAT docs you suggeates before getting too excited that this could be a solution for me.

Thanks again

Casu · Senior Member

If you are desperate to work, then there are plenty of jobs you can do from home, without first having to gain experience and without the potential to screw up other folks lives (fines and penalties for getting it wrong).

Realities of the job are NOTHING like the coursework!

What Joanne did not mention is the fact that you will spend a massive portion of your time undertaking unpaid research, even after you have been supervised in a practice/other role. Ignoring the fact that you have cut out a masssive chunk of your potential market by not being able to work for a business at their premises.

Vat is just the start - there are a lot more taxes.

Bristol_al · Member

Thank you Casu for your response. I do appreciate that the reality of the job is very different to the study books- hence the question here.

I should make it clear that the level of work/income I'd be looking to achieve are small (not a living) - more like a sideline (a few hours a week). Although I appreciate that you might almost think that is MORE unrealistic because of startup/running costs. I'm not trying to insult your profession - I can see that it can be highly complex - I'd be aiming for the most basic level of routine bookkeeping tasks. At the moment I do have the luxury of time (my husband works and I have a small pension) so don't need to rush into anything, but I would like to be working towards something for when I feel well enough.

I can understand why you're both saying that self-employment is harder than being employed but frankly I have no choice other than continuing not to work forever (which I accept may turn out to be what I have to do). And while I respect you saying there are plenty of other things I could do I can assure you it doesn't seem like it. I'm not throwing everything into becoming a bookkeeper simply exploring the option.

If I could pass some exams I would probably try to work on someones books on a voluntary basis (a friend or family member) to gain some real world experience. Presumably I would still need insurance to do this, anti-money laundering stuff (I know it's a thing but not more than that). Would I need to be a member of a professional body as well? Would I be allowed to practice voluntarily in this way or could I get myself/my client in trouble?

I've had a look through the forums and found the hundred other threads exactly like this so a massive sorry and thank you for your patience in replying.

Thanks

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Bristol_al wrote:
Thank you Casu for your response. I do appreciate that the reality of the job is very different to the study books- hence the question here.

I should make it clear that the level of work/income I'd be looking to achieve are small (not a living) - more like a sideline (a few hours a week). Although I appreciate that you might almost think that is MORE unrealistic because of startup/running costs. I'm not trying to insult your profession - I can see that it can be highly complex - I'd be aiming for the most basic level of routine bookkeeping tasks. What is basic bookkeeping? How do you know when you take a client on whether they have basic bookkeeping needs or not? I still occasionally get caught out by thinking something is simple and then find out they are far from it. Ive not met one client that has 'basic' needs yet. Maybe I just attract the complex! At the moment I do have the luxury of time (my husband works and I have a small pension) so don't need to rush into anything, but I would like to be working towards something for when I feel well enough.

I can understand why you're both saying that self-employment is harder than being employed but frankly I have no choice other than continuing not to work forever (which I accept may turn out to be what I have to do). And while I respect you saying there are plenty of other things I could do I can assure you it doesn't seem like it. What about remote PR work. You can do no harm and folk are crying out for it and it needs no exams and can be interesting and varied? Probably in a lot of cases pays more as well. I'm not throwing everything into becoming a bookkeeper simply exploring the option.

If I could pass some exams I would probably try to work on someones books on a voluntary basis (a friend or family member) to gain some real world experience.No. This would be in breach of professional ethics. You cannot work on family/friends files and anyone saying you can is in breach of ethics! There are major risks in doing so. Presumably I would still need insurance to do this, anti-money laundering stuff (I know it's a thing but not more than that). Would I need to be a member of a professional body as well? Would I be allowed to practice voluntarily in this way or could I get myself/my client in trouble?
How does working for someone voluntarily get you the experience you need when you are not being supervised? Do you know someone who can/is willing to supervise your work?

I've had a look through the forums and found the hundred other threads exactly like this so a massive sorry and thank you for your patience in replying.

Thanks

Bristol_al · Member

Ok I think it is clear that I can't do the things I thought I might be able to. Just so I've got this totally clear in my head, here is my final (fingers crossed) question:

Q. What is the recommended route to become a self-employed bookkeeper (in an ideal world where I had no health constraints)?

From what you've said I'm getting the impression that you have to go down the employed route first via a training contract (which might be hard to get). And that prior to getting that contract you should have achieved a certain level of qualifications (via AAT). Is that correct? Is there really no way to go straight to self employment?

Thanks again. I know I'm not getting the answers I wanted but I do appreciate you taking the time to explain it to me. At least then I can close it down and move on.

Bristol_al · Member

Just so you don't think I'm totally mad for ever thinking this was an option - the IAB seem (to me) to be pushing the idea that this is the dream self employed job and all you need to to do is pass their exams to set up your own practice.

From their website...

Get qualified and gain IAB professional membership so youre on a legal, professional footing
Choose a convenient workplace: at home, rented office space or clients premises
Invest in computer and business software
Promote your business through networking, mail-shots, social media
Protect your career with Professional Indemnity Insurance
Check whether you need to register under the Data Protection Act
Continue your professional development so youre always one step ahead

Artois · Guru

Bristol_al wrote:
Just so you don't think I'm totally mad for ever thinking this was an option - the IAB seem (to me) to be pushing the idea that this is the dream self employed job and all you need to to do is pass their exams to set up your own practice.

From their website...

Get qualified and gain IAB professional membership so youre on a legal, professional footing
Choose a convenient workplace: at home, rented office space or clients premises
Invest in computer and business software
Promote your business through networking, mail-shots, social media
Protect your career with Professional Indemnity Insurance
Check whether you need to register under the Data Protection Act
Continue your professional development so youre always one step ahead

Hi Alice and welcome to the forum

I don't think anyone here thinks you are mad, they are just trying to point out how difficult it may be.

What the IAB are doing and not just them they are trying to sell you a course and membership, I don't believe that they are doing anything wrong but they are certainly not telling you how difficult it will be to get work after you have qualified, and why should they at the end of the day they want your money!

As Joanne rightly says the market is completely saturated with people who have taken courses and gained qualifications but are unable to find work whether that be through employment or self-employment, they may be able to get you the qualifications but they can not get you a job or win you clients which is what everyone wants.

If this is the route you want to take then go for it, once passed you will always have the qualification and it will certainly be a plus but I do not believe that the qualification alone will be enough to start and succeed with your own business

Good luck with whatever you choose

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

I dont appear to have my Qs answered.

Membership does not always = licence.

You can be a full ACCA member, but not be able to practice because you are not a MiP.

Bristol_al · Member

Thanks Doug

Bristol_al · Member

Sorry Joanne. I haven't meant not to answer anything. You use a lot of (what I thought) were rhetorical questions to get me thinking so I'm sorry if you were expecting answers. Do you mean this one...

How does working for someone voluntarily get you the experience you need when you are not being supervised? Do you know someone who can/is willing to supervise your work?

Unfortunately I don't know anyone who can supervise. I'm pretty sure I don't know anyone in accounting. I meant getting experience in as much as doing the job, seeing what comes up. From what Doug has said and what I've read I haven't seen any rule that says you need to be supervised (in the IAB anyway and I get the impression you are allowed to work as a bookkeeper without professional membership) except for money laundering anyway. From my reading of IAB there is no supervision required to be a member in practice - except for money laundering purposes and they take on that role.

Just to be clear (I'm worried I've caused offence). When I said I'm not getting the answers I wanted, what I meant was that they were not the answers I'd hoped for- (because of course I was hoping it would turn out to be an amazing idea and a solution to all my problems) but that I am really grateful that you have taken the time and effort to be so honest with me.

I'm going to bow out of this thread now because I've definitely had my answers. Many thanks again to you all.

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Bristol_al wrote:
Do you know someone who can/is willing to supervise your work? Yes this was the Q I wanted answering as frankly this wouldve been the easiest way to sort out getting relevant experience, to persuade whatever organisation you wish to sign up with for a MiP.
I meant getting experience in as much as doing the job 'experience' is only on the job if you have someone checking your work. You dont know what you dont know, so you wouldnt know what you are doing wrong!! Experience is usually gained by working for someone who can check (ie supervise) your work. seeing what comes up. From what Doug has said and what I've read I haven't seen any rule that says you need to be supervised. Bookkeeping is not a protected profession so you can work in it with no qualifications, no experience, knowing zilch and being pretty crap at it, but it doesnt mean you should and it doesnt mean we will encourage it on here (in the IAB anyway and I get the impression you are allowed to work as a bookkeeper without professional membership - this is wrong. You cannot remain a member and work without a practice certificate. But you can leave and practice on your own. Is it wise to? No! But if you want to you can. Frankly in some ways Im glad folk do as I make a LOT of money mopping up the messes left by such folk. But it leaves an embarrassing stain on our industry.) except for money laundering anyway. From my reading of IAB there is no supervision required to be a member in practice - except for money laundering purposes and they take on that role.

Just to be clear (I'm worried I've caused offence). Im not so easily offended!!!! Im just trying to point out why it isnt the amazing idea you thought you had, right from my first post and why. I also said you can do what you like, but just to be clear, but dont mix up the requirements of a MiP with a supervising body (IaB, or other) and going it alone. Without real hands on experience you WILL struggle. This place is littered with folk who have experienced that or had to rely on others for help and even a bail out, never mind those who have given up. In fact we have had those who have attempted to sell their so called businesses, only to find they had nothing to sell. When I said I'm not getting the answers I wanted, what I meant was that they were not the answers I'd hoped for- (because of course I was hoping it would turn out to be an amazing idea and a solution to all my problems) but that I am really grateful that you have taken the time and effort to be so honest with me.

I'm going to bow out of this thread now because I've definitely had my answers. Many thanks again to you all.

edited to remove the 'bold' red bits

-- Edited by Cheshire on Thursday 1st of August 2019 05:18:35 PM

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Loads more I could add but frankly no time.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

We may see you back once you have passed your exams - let us know when you do.