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Post Info TOPIC: Subcontractor versus employee


Veteran Member

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Subcontractor versus employee


Hi

I have been presented with a fantastic opportunity to work for a firm and they have asked my views on being a subcontractor for them rather than an employee.

I need some advice on where to start with this. It will be doing bookkeeping and accountancy work along with other adhoc things that come up.

I take it that I would need to register as self employed, or would setting up a Ltd company be a better idea? Do I need to register for MLR compliance? What about any other regulatory conditions? I am fully qualified and a member of ACCA and the ICB but I have always been an employee and also never done personal tax! Other than when I passed my exams umpteen years ago!! I am guessing that being a subcontractor rather than an employee will affect my chances of obtaining a mortgage for a few years.

Where do I start as they want me to start doing some work for them next week. Any advice is appreciated. I obviously want to maximise my income whilst paying my dues and I know it can be a minefield.

Thanks in advance.



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Trisha



Master Book-keeper

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Hi

First most important:-
Do you have a practising certificate from ACCA? If no then Employed.

Or can you get one from ACCA? that will cover your MLR

Care one from ICB will NOT cover you as ACCA trumps ICB, unless you resign from ACCA in full!!!!!!!!!!! Or only do up to TB, therefore NO tax returns, no journalling etc.

Also of importance - Look at IR35 - from 2020 this could impact. (Although appreciating this is their issue more than yours, but will give you a steer. Whose software, who decides what work, when work/what files, right of replacement, error corrections/responsibilities etc - lots on here about it, except the soon to be in place changes)

Employee rights v none (see a post on here from a disgruntled Julie recently).

S/e or Limited - we dont know enough about your personal circs to comment but this is one of the main Qs you will get at such a firm (albeit as a subbie/employee you probs wont get involved with.



Just for starters



__________________

Joanne

Fallows Hall Ltd

Winner - Bookkeeper of the Year 2015, 2016 and 2017

Thoughts are my own/not to be regarded as official advice,which should be sought from a suitably qualified Accountant.



Master Book-keeper

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Just another thought (I will probs have loads more through the day!)

Just dealing with one subbie as s/e / Limited no doubt breaks the ACCA code as well - 100% of business is not allowed, but also not good idea to put all eggs in one basket in that state neither.

Are they full time hours? (again indicator of employment)

Plus forgot to say - well done on the offer!!!!!!

Apols now on typos!



-- Edited by Cheshire on Wednesday 27th of March 2019 12:45:08 PM

__________________

Joanne

Fallows Hall Ltd

Winner - Bookkeeper of the Year 2015, 2016 and 2017

Thoughts are my own/not to be regarded as official advice,which should be sought from a suitably qualified Accountant.



Veteran Member

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Posts: 36
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Hi Joanne and thanks for the responses

It would be about 21 hours a week and I wouldn't be submitting any accounts. I do not have a practicing certificate from ACCA. I have only been a member of ICB for a few months so still getting used to them.

The work would be doing the bookkeeping for a Spanish hotel on Xero (with a few visits a year thrown in), forensic accounting for divorce cases, supporting in legal cases and Xero training.

Will double check how far they would want me to take the Spanish element.

Trisha

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Trisha



Master Book-keeper

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Hi Trisha
Shounds deemed employment to me and they are trying to push their responsibilities re the choice on to you. Will bite them in the bum if they are not careful

But if convinced you want to go s/e check the forensics and support part with ACCA with regards to if this will be covered under their licence as well as the rest.

Also re the legal side you may well struggle getting PII cover is s/e if you have no experience in this. Either that or it will cost a bomb. So worth a couple of calls for that too once you have tapped up ACCA for more info



-- Edited by Cheshire on Wednesday 27th of March 2019 01:21:09 PM

__________________

Joanne

Fallows Hall Ltd

Winner - Bookkeeper of the Year 2015, 2016 and 2017

Thoughts are my own/not to be regarded as official advice,which should be sought from a suitably qualified Accountant.



Veteran Member

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Posts: 36
Date:

Thanks again Joanne.

Could I ask you something else please seeing as the ACCA tech line has been engaged for hours. I have become aware that a charity that I work for are paying staff for work that they do not carry out. 3 employees have contracts for x hours a week but they both skive and do perhaps 10% of the work that they are paid for. The manager is one of these and he is aware of what the other 2 are doing and does nothing. He has allowed it to happen for about 15 years.

I have also found out that hundreds of thousands of pounds of charity money has been lost through bad decisions and again he has done nothing to correct his bad decisions and the trustees have done nothing about it. He has received advice and ignored it.

This is ethically and morally wrong on every level. What would you do? I am tempted to resign on ethical grounds. The charity needs protecting and I am doing what I can but I do not want to damage my own career and prospects through being involved with this.



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Trisha



Guru

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Hi Trisha

Agree with Joanne seems like deemed employment to me, and a workers employment status is not a matter of choice but depends on the terms and conditions of the relevant engagement.

If in doubt you could always try the HMRC 'Check employment status for tax' service on the website.



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Doug

These are only my opinions of how I see things and therefore should not be taken as advice



Master Book-keeper

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Hi Doug

Yes the HMRC tool would be helpful I agree. The test includes control. Can you work your own hours or are these dictated? Do you set your pay rate or is this also dictated.? Tools: Is this done on your own computer or laptop using your own software or do you work on clients premises using their software. Can you get someone else to stand in for you etc.

Incidentally Doug, I have sent you a PM, have you seen it?



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John

Any advice given is for general guidance and professional advice should be sought applicable to your circumstances.



Guru

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Leger wrote:

Incidentally Doug, I have sent you a PM, have you seen it?


Not seen one but to be honest John I am not sure how to view a PM or if I even have it set up, where would I find it ?

Whilst looking I checked the email account that I have set up for here and realised I had messages on that dating from early Feb.



__________________

Doug

These are only my opinions of how I see things and therefore should not be taken as advice



Master Book-keeper

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It was sent to the email address on your profile Doug. Check your spam/junk file if you can't see it.

If not can you send me an email address to reply to please. My email is admin[at]ybal[dot]co[dot]uk



__________________

John

Any advice given is for general guidance and professional advice should be sought applicable to your circumstances.



Master Book-keeper

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Purple wrote:

Thanks again Joanne.

Could I ask you something else please seeing as the ACCA tech line has been engaged for hours. I have become aware that a charity that I work for are paying staff for work that they do not carry out. 3 employees have contracts for x hours a week but they both skive and do perhaps 10% of the work that they are paid for. The manager is one of these and he is aware of what the other 2 are doing and does nothing. He has allowed it to happen for about 15 years.

I have also found out that hundreds of thousands of pounds of charity money has been lost through bad decisions and again he has done nothing to correct his bad decisions and the trustees have done nothing about it. He has received advice and ignored it.

This is ethically and morally wrong on every level. What would you do? I am tempted to resign on ethical grounds. The charity needs protecting and I am doing what I can but I do not want to damage my own career and prospects through being involved with this.


Hi Trisha

Sorry I didnt get back on this one. Somebody I was working with died suddenly.

The problem as I see it, without being party to more info is that making bad decisions and negligently acting are two very different things, so I guess it depends when on the scale inbetween these to that this is falling.

Does this chap have a line manager/do you or do you have the ear of one of the trustees that you trust so that you can guage the lie of the land as to if there is any appetite to really fix the issue? If its endemic then you will never get it sorted.

You may need to go down the whistleblowing route.

I would get some advice based on specifics from ACCA - this is where I understand they can be very useful.

I would also have a look at the Charities Commission website for reporting wrongdoing and see if any of the categories fit. (Actually ask the ACCA if you should put a call out to the CC to voice your concerns).

Ethically if you still feel compromised then resign and consider citing your reasons in that letter (just be craeful how its worded).

As you say certain things are not worth putting your career etc at risk



__________________

Joanne

Fallows Hall Ltd

Winner - Bookkeeper of the Year 2015, 2016 and 2017

Thoughts are my own/not to be regarded as official advice,which should be sought from a suitably qualified Accountant.



Master Book-keeper

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Posts: 7644
Date:

Leger wrote:

My email is admin[at]ybal[dot]co[dot]uk


Rebel!!!!!wink



__________________

Joanne

Fallows Hall Ltd

Winner - Bookkeeper of the Year 2015, 2016 and 2017

Thoughts are my own/not to be regarded as official advice,which should be sought from a suitably qualified Accountant.



Master Book-keeper

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Posts: 2975
Date:

Cheshire wrote:
Leger wrote:

My email is admin[at]ybal[dot]co[dot]uk


Rebel!!!!!wink


I was worried about that lass from sage:next spamming me lol. I can't remember her name and its bugging me. She used to spam every now and again and we'd take the pi$$



__________________

John

Any advice given is for general guidance and professional advice should be sought applicable to your circumstances.



Master Book-keeper

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Date:

Jessica. That was one of them anyway! She will be back, like the proverbial bad penny.



__________________

Joanne

Fallows Hall Ltd

Winner - Bookkeeper of the Year 2015, 2016 and 2017

Thoughts are my own/not to be regarded as official advice,which should be sought from a suitably qualified Accountant.



Master Book-keeper

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Posts: 2975
Date:

That's her, thanks Joanne



__________________

John

Any advice given is for general guidance and professional advice should be sought applicable to your circumstances.

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