New Feature - moderation by concensus - The Book-keepers Forum (UK)

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

New Feature - moderation by concensus

Haymac · Veteran Member

Massive three cheers Shaun. I dip in and out of the forum ( work schedule permitting), as it is for all of us in this profession, I do not contribute as often as I would like to but I often have to congratulate yourself, Joanne, John (ledger) and Johnny and many others for the way in which you all deal with this sometimes rude and aggressive posting which seems to be increasing. This forum is a great help to ALL of us regardless of experience or qualification, do not want to see a minority ruining it for everyone.

matt123 · Senior Member

I was annoyed this morning with the "ASAP" on the end of the post. I logged in just to reply as Joanne had given advice and was then told it was wrong. I've cooled down now haha

VinceH · Expert

Does this forum support sticky posts?

For those not aware, a sticky post is one that always 'sticks' to the top in whatever section it is in - so if you go into a particular section (as a new poster is likely to do in order to post), the first thing you see is the sticky post. If the forum supports them, what I'd suggest is having one in each section that covers the basic rules and useful guidelines for the forum, as well as some general advice related to that section.

For example, all the sticky posts will suggest people start by visiting the Intro/Time Out section and posting something to introduce themselves, and their business (and in particular whether they're in business, or in THIS business). They'll mention the 'thank you' campaign, and the suggestion to include a name in the sig.

Then in specific sections, contextual suggestions - so in the 'software' section, suggest that when asking for assistance with software, be sure to include the name AND VERSION of the software in use and the platform you are running it on.

And so on.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Matt,

that was actually the one that prompted this thread.

It wasn't just that message of course but rather that one which was the straw that broke the camels back.

One of the great things about this site is that it's open to everyone no matter what professional body one is aliened with everyone gets the same level of mutual respect.

How Joanne was spoken to this morning disgusted me and I was very close to banning the posters IP address... I've learnt that in order to act rationally I write the banning report (yep, everything has to be documented!) before actioning the actual ban which gives me chance to think the matter through logically.

In that instance it's quite obvious that English is not the first language of the poster concerned so I decided to cut her some slack and just post a response in the thread. I also messaged Joanne off line to make sure that she had not taken that post to heart.

In general it seems that the problem posts that we are having on the site are not coming from bookkeepers or accountants but rather its some small business owners who don't want to pay for representation and seem to assume that this is a funded service set up fo the purpose of helping them.

Many of them are fine and some of their questions can be quite interesting, but the attitude of others is unacceptable.

As a starter to try and keep the site as a freindly helpful place for professionals to help fellow professionals I'm suggesting that people feel free to PM me with any concerns such as todays misjudged post. I'm open to anyone elses suggestions if you can think of anything to keep the site open to all to view and post but avoids repeats of posts such as that one today please let me know.

All the best,

Shaun.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

VinceH wrote:
Does this forum support sticky posts?

For those not aware, a sticky post is one that always 'sticks' to the top in whatever section it is in - so if you go into a particular section (as a new poster is likely to do in order to post), the first thing you see is the sticky post. If the forum supports them, what I'd suggest is having one in each section that covers the basic rules and useful guidelines for the forum, as well as some general advice related to that section.

For example, all the sticky posts will suggest people start by visiting the Intro/Time Out section and posting something to introduce themselves, and their business (and in particular whether they're in business, or in THIS business). They'll mention the 'thank you' campaign, and the suggestion to include a name in the sig.

Then in specific sections, contextual suggestions - so in the 'software' section, suggest that when asking for assistance with software, be sure to include the name AND VERSION of the software in use and the platform you are running it on.

And so on.

Hi Vince,

Yes it does, it's one of my moderator options to make a post a sticky. The site rules is a good exampl. If you take a look is Forum Information, Rules, News, Suggestions & Updates! the first few are stickies.

I think most site visitors though use the recent posts option rather than the individual buckets.

Adding stickies to each section is however certainly something that we could do.

One thing that I've been pondering is that we have site rules but we don't actually have a site ethics sticky. Considering the ethics driven nature of the profession that we are in extending the rules to cover an expected level of ethical behaviour on the site to me makes a lot of sense.

I'm a bit busy for a couple of days but sometime this week I'll bash something together based very roughly on the principles of the IFAC code and put it out for general comment.

I'll also have words with the site owners to see if there is any way of incorporating reading the rules and ethical guidlines into the site sign up procedure.

People may still not read them but at least they wouldn't be able to deny having at least seen them.

Good suggestion on making better use of the stickies Vince and certainly something that I'll look into.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Haymac wrote:
Massive three cheers Shaun. I dip in and out of the forum ( work schedule permitting), as it is for all of us in this profession, I do not contribute as often as I would like to but I often have to congratulate yourself, Joanne, John (ledger) and Johnny and many others for the way in which you all deal with this sometimes rude and aggressive posting which seems to be increasing. This forum is a great help to ALL of us regardless of experience or qualification, do not want to see a minority ruining it for everyone.

Many thanks for the kind words Julie.

You're actually one of those that I would count amongst the core contributors.

Not everyone is able to contribute all of the time and thats fully appreciated. Doesn't make your expertise any less key to the site.

One of my worries around the current issues though is actually the loss of input from some of the more nervous occassional posters as I'm sure that seeing posts like the one today is not going to be conjucive to less confident posters feeling that they can contribute to the site and to my mind it's only by people posting answers here that they can really grow their confidence.

Meadowlands · Senior Member

Shaun,

I echo Julies words. This site is a great resource and while I feel I get more than I give I do try and help where I can. We all know that theory and practice are very different and when you work on your own you need to find a support network - either to check your sanity or get a question answered

Sadly I think you are right and it isn't other professionals it is often small business owners who post in ways that are not appropriate and act as if they are not getting what they paid for. Well since they paid nothing they are getting way more than they paid for. I think you are probably right in that those responses are putting off newcomers. Hopefully, things will go back to how they were. Thanks for your hard work

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Shamus wrote:

One of my worries around the current issues though is actually the loss of input from some of the more nervous occassional posters as I'm sure that seeing posts like the one today is not going to be conjucive to less confident posters feeling that they can contribute to the site and to my mind it's only by people posting answers here that they can really grow their confidence.

Alison wrote I think you are probably right in that those responses are putting off newcomers.

________________________________________________________________________________________________

Just to aid my understanding of this part of this post topic, are you both saying it's my responses to these particular people that putting off/could be putting off newcomers?

abacus12345 · Guru

Agree with Shaun. No need for rudeness - I don't think anyone could argue against your posts Joanne, especially after how much effort you put into them. I have thought of just replying, yes/no - of course / of course not type responses to the few shirty members - but then, that's not really me, nor my bag - so I read their Q and move along lol

VinceH · Expert

"Yes it does, it's one of my moderator options to make a post a sticky. The site rules is a good exampl. If you take a look is Forum Information, Rules, News, Suggestions & Updates! the first few are stickies."

So they are. Wouldn't it have been handy if I'd glanced somewhere obvious like that first, then I could have answered my own question! ;)

"I think most site visitors though use the recent posts option rather than the individual buckets."

Yes, but I think you misunderstand (or I didn't explain my logic clearly enough).

In order to post a new topic, the user has to click through to a particular section. E.g. to start a new general bookkeeping query, a visitor has to click on that section before they'll see the "New topic" button - so any sticky posts will be the top one(s) below that, plainly visible to them.

If the topic is "READ THIS BEFORE YOU START A NEW TOPIC" then while some people might still form a blind spot and go ahead and post, they'd really have no excuse and can expect replies that politely point them at the sticky they haven't read, suggesting they read it first then ask again.

-- Edited by VinceH on Tuesday 31st of May 2016 09:15:34 AM

abacus12345 · Guru

Coming in from another angle - could it not be made necessary to include your bio before your membership is activated? Then again, I suppose you could fill the box with 'aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa' Or bio needs to be filled before Mr Moderator clicks your account as being active - a painstaking job I'd guess. Just saying ;)

In reality, it is open to the public so.....Expect 'anything'

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Cheshire wrote:
Shamus wrote:

One of my worries around the current issues though is actually the loss of input from some of the more nervous occassional posters as I'm sure that seeing posts like the one today is not going to be conjucive to less confident posters feeling that they can contribute to the site and to my mind it's only by people posting answers here that they can really grow their confidence.

Alison wrote I think you are probably right in that those responses are putting off newcomers.
________________________________________________________________________________________________
Just to aid my understanding of this part of this post topic, are you both saying it's my responses to these particular people that putting off/could be putting off newcomers?

Where did that come from! Tut, the problems with written medium.

We're talking about some of the bookkeepers and accountants on here who are perhaps a little more nevous perhaps because they are first posters who know and answer to a question but don't post because of responses such as the rather short one that you received yesterday.

If new posters are seeing seasoned contributors spoken to like that it's going to put them off posting their comments and building their client facing confidence.

This site has always been about helping bookkeepers and newstart accountants build their confidence and find the answers that they need in an almost family type atmosphere to try and develop peoples client facing skills and general knowledge bases.

Lol, C- for comprehension Joanne. Back to the start of the thread with you young lady and read it again from the perspective that you are the one being defended here.

Just to emphasise here. I am not saying that we should stop having respectful heated debates amongst ourselves. It wwould be a pretty poor forum if everyone always agreed with each other. This move is purely to try and tackle the growing number of cases such as the one you encountered yesterday that really should not be happening with such regularity on a site intended for financial professionals

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

VinceH wrote:
"Yes it does, it's one of my moderator options to make a post a sticky. The site rules is a good exampl. If you take a look is Forum Information, Rules, News, Suggestions & Updates! the first few are stickies."
So they are. Wouldn't it have been handy if I'd glanced somewhere obvious like that first, then I could have answered my own question! ;)
"I think most site visitors though use the recent posts option rather than the individual buckets."
Yes, but I think you misunderstand (or I didn't explain my logic clearly enough).
In order to post a new topic, the user has to click through to a particular section. E.g. to start a new general bookkeeping query, a visitor has to click on that section before they'll see the "New topic" button - so any sticky posts will be the top one(s) below that, plainly visible to them.
If the topic is "READ THIS BEFORE YOU START A NEW TOPIC" then while some people might still form a blind spot and go ahead and post, they'd really have no excuse and can expect replies that politely point them at the sticky they haven't read, suggesting they read it first then ask again.

-- Edited by VinceH on Tuesday 31st of May 2016 09:15:34 AM

Thats a really good point Vince and one that we'll implement for all sections.

I'll also release all the other stickies except the free stuff one (which needs a tidy up) and the one's in the rules section (I think that it's now time that "Convince me that I don't need Sage" was allowed to disappear back into the mass of posts as its now had its time).

As mentioned last night I'm also going to enhance the existing rules with some ethical guidelines (principles based rules) for the site. I'll start another thread for us all to contribute towards the rules that everyone would like to see in place.

I'm going to start with the first five sections and section 250 of the IFAC code of ethics and use peoples input to interpret those specific to the site so that should also help people from some of the entry level qualifications that have not yet adopted the IFAC code to start thinking about the ethical considerations in everything that they do much the same as the rest of us who are bound to them by our professional memberships.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

abacus12345 wrote:
Coming in from another angle - could it not be made necessary to include your bio before your membership is activated? Then again, I suppose you could fill the box with 'aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa' Or bio needs to be filled before Mr Moderator clicks your account as being active - a painstaking job I'd guess. Just saying ;)

In reality, it is open to the public so.....Expect 'anything'

I see where you are coming from Johnny but its all a big balancing act that we do not want to discourage anyone from joining and thats going to include a lot of people just thinking about career changing into this field and a barrage of up front questions may deter them from seeking the advice that could really help them get the best start.

That said, we could just have the sticky at the start of the training and qualifications section that says

"If you are thinking of becoming either a bookkeeper or and accountant join the AAT".

"If you want to know more about tax read Taxation by Alan Melville".

"If you are not sure if this career is for you read Business Accounts by David Cox"

That would save so many personalised versions of the above, lol.

Leger · Master Book-keeper

Shamus wrote:
In that instance it's quite obvious that English is not the first language of the poster concerned so I decided to cut her some slack and just post a response in the thread. I also messaged Joanne off line to make sure that she had not taken that post to heart.

In general it seems that the problem posts that we are having on the site are not coming from bookkeepers or accountants but rather its some small business owners who don't want to pay for representation and seem to assume that this is a funded service set up fo the purpose of helping them.

Hi Shaun

No it isn't, and I took that into consideration when I made my reply yesterday. In fairness to Maria, she did ask afterwards if people could quote her a price for doing the work needed. As in Joanne's response to your's and Alison's posts this morning, the written medium can be misinterpreted, and I think Maria's "abrupt" post was a misunderstanding of what Joanne had said, rather than a put down. That said, a thank you wouldn't have gone amiss, as Joanne had gone out of her way to help.

I love Vince's suggestion about stickies. Not everyone will read them of course, but they are without excuse if they don't.

VinceH · Expert

We could take a leaf out of that AWeb poster mentioned recently for those cases where the sticky posts are ignored.

Q: "Can I reclaim the VAT on my new garage? I park my car in it, and I use the car to get to the office - does that make it a valid business expense? My VAT return is due this afternoon, so I need the answer ASAP."

A: 42

Leger · Master Book-keeper

Lol Vince, I thought the correct answer was £8060!

VinceH · Expert

Not if you give the question some Deep Thought.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

VinceH wrote:
Not if you give the question some Deep Thought.

Lol

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Shamus wrote:
Cheshire wrote:
Shamus wrote:

One of my worries around the current issues though is actually the loss of input from some of the more nervous occassional posters as I'm sure that seeing posts like the one today is not going to be conjucive to less confident posters feeling that they can contribute to the site and to my mind it's only by people posting answers here that they can really grow their confidence.

Alison wrote I think you are probably right in that those responses are putting off newcomers.
________________________________________________________________________________________________
Just to aid my understanding of this part of this post topic, are you both saying it's my responses to these particular people that putting off/could be putting off newcomers?
Where did that come from! Tut, the problems with written medium.
We're talking about some of the bookkeepers and accountants on here who are perhaps a little more nevous perhaps because they are first posters who know and answer to a question but don't post because of responses such as the rather short one that you received yesterday.
If new posters are seeing seasoned contributors spoken to like that it's going to put them off posting their comments and building their client facing confidence.
This site has always been about helping bookkeepers and newstart accountants build their confidence and find the answers that they need in an almost family type atmosphere to try and develop peoples client facing skills and general knowledge bases.
Lol, C- for comprehension Joanne. Back to the start of the thread with you young lady and read it again from the perspective that you are the one being defended here.
Just to emphasise here. I am not saying that we should stop having respectful heated debates amongst ourselves. It wwould be a pretty poor forum if everyone always agreed with each other. This move is purely to try and tackle the growing number of cases such as the one you encountered yesterday that really should not be happening with such regularity on a site intended for financial professionals

I do struggle with comprehension! Always have, glad to see my mark has increased to a 'C'.

Just wanted to double check and clear that one in my head as I had read it about 10 times, both yesterday and today and come to the same conclusion.

Appreciate the other things you and the others have said, so thank you all for that.

abacus12345 · Guru

Joanne before long you'll have more awards than Coronation street does for best soap...

I think therein lays what you mean to the site, and what people think of your contributions to this site.

Just saying :P

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

No probs Joanne.

its a case though that if one misreads something once you will misread it in the same way every time that you read it after that. (Thats myy excuse for not correcting my spelling mistakes and I'm stivcking to it).

The other way to look at that s that if you misread it so will some others so the follow up clarification of what was being said was much needed and I should appologise for any misunderstanding caused.

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Leger wrote:
Shamus wrote:
In that instance it's quite obvious that English is not the first language of the poster concerned so I decided to cut her some slack and just post a response in the thread. I also messaged Joanne off line to make sure that she had not taken that post to heart.

In general it seems that the problem posts that we are having on the site are not coming from bookkeepers or accountants but rather its some small business owners who don't want to pay for representation and seem to assume that this is a funded service set up fo the purpose of helping them.
Hi Shaun
No it isn't, and I took that into consideration when I made my reply yesterday. In fairness to Maria, she did ask afterwards if people could quote her a price for doing the work needed. As in Joanne's response to your's and Alison's posts this morning, the written medium can be misinterpreted, and I think Maria's "abrupt" post was a misunderstanding of what Joanne had said, rather than a put down. That said, a thank you wouldn't have gone amiss, as Joanne had gone out of her way to help.
I love Vince's suggestion about stickies. Not everyone will read them of course, but they are without excuse if they don't.

In fairness - it was me who suggested she post an advert on the site.

I didnt take what she said as a put down, plus I had spotted the language issue from previous posts, but I found it extremely rude, frankly stupid and very shortsighted for someone to ask a question of a forum and then say that the person who has suggested an answer (at least in part) is wrong. Not saying Im right in every response but if you think Im wrong - back it up!!!!!! She was told very plainly what her duties are, yet no apology was forthcoming.

I understand completely her panic given the short time she had to get the job done and with having only achieved £2000 (or is it £7.5k?) of turnover in 12 months she wouldnt want to spend a fortune on a professional, but that is completely of her own making as she had been given the advice back in 2015, but the way to get help is not to keep asking the same question 3 times, not to criticise the person trying to help and, well actually answer the damned questions that people are asking you to get to the root of the bloody issue enough to help.

I assume she has contacted you off line John, for her own good.

But I for one wish to put in a formal complaint about he poster. I might not be so nice to the next one!

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

abacus12345 wrote:
Joanne before long you'll have more awards than Coronation street does for best soap...

I think therein lays what you mean to the site, and what people think of your contributions to this site.

Just saying :P

Im still waiting for the bloody glasswork from the award from here. Thinking of going to get my own made up!!!

Does that mean I can buy a posh frock and prepare a speech to read. Oh god - both of those are my worst nightmare!!!

Thank you though evileye

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Shamus wrote:
No probs Joanne.

its a case though that if one misreads something once you will misread it in the same way every time that you read it after that. (Thats myy excuse for not correcting my spelling mistakes and I'm stivcking to it).

The other way to look at that s that if you misread it so will some others so the follow up clarification of what was being said was much needed and I should appologise for any misunderstanding caused.

Im channeling my inner PNL, which hasnt been seen since 1 November 2007, apart from by my son when he has done something big time wrong!!!!!!

abacus12345 · Guru

You've not received your award yet??

OMG

Shame on you site owners :P

I suppose you'll get 2015 and 2016 ;) together - saving on the postage!

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

lol. To be honest I think they had decided not to send glasswear out but just didnt tell us, so this years winners were expecting they would based on previous years. I keep meaning to just get a frame for the award banner bit.

abacus12345 · Guru

Come on Mr Moderator you've the contacts for this one :)

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

abacus12345 wrote:
Come on Mr Moderator you've the contacts for this one :)

No, dont Shaun. Seriously. You have enough to do. Plus and Im really not ar*ed. Knowing how clumsy I am, i ould probably drop the said glasswear on my foot, breaking both my foot and the glasswear. Winning the actual award was and still is the key thing - Im still pinching myself regularly now!

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Cheshire wrote:
I for one wish to put in a formal complaint about the poster.

duly noted Joane (and I'm not just paying lip service to that).

The poster concerned did not appologise to you in that thread however, they are obviously having a major panic about a delivery required by tomorrow (a situation brought on by herself not taking site (your) advice from 9 months ago) so whilst this has caused a considerable amount of site upset (not least your own) and a rethinking of site rules I am still adverse to going straight to an immediate ban or how would they get any help at all for their filing.

Maybe John could confirm whether this poster is now his client?

I will be observing any further posts from this poster and any sign of continued unprofessional communication will result in site exclusion.

I hope that such, combined with the sites reaction to that post that I feel shocked us all is sufficient to temporarily appease your justifiable anger at this poster Joanne.

kindest regards,

Shaun.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Cheshire wrote:
abacus12345 wrote:
Come on Mr Moderator you've the contacts for this one :)
No, dont Shaun. Seriously. You have enough to do. Plus and Im really not ar*ed. Knowing how clumsy I am, i ould probably drop the said glasswear on my foot, breaking both my foot and the glasswear. Winning the actual award was and still is the key thing - Im still pinching myself regularly now!

Hi Joanne,

Johnny's right, I do have contacts,

Think that we need to take this one off line rather than it changing the focus of this thread.

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Shamus wrote:
Cheshire wrote:
I for one wish to put in a formal complaint about the poster.
duly noted Joane (and I'm not just paying lip service to that).
The poster concerned did not appologise to you in that thread however, they are obviously having a major panic about a delivery required by tomorrow (a situation brought on by herself not taking site (your) advice from 9 months ago) so whilst this has caused a considerable amount of site upset (not least your own) and a rethinking of site rules I am still adverse to going straight to an immediate ban or how would they get any help at all for their filing.
Maybe John could confirm whether this poster is now his client? I do hope so, for their own good, as John will see them right
I will be observing any further posts from this poster and any sign of continued unprofessional communication will result in site exclusion.
I hope that such, combined with the sites reaction to that post that I feel shocked us all is sufficient to temporarily appease your justifiable anger at this poster Joanne. Thanks for the new features etc. I expect some of the self serving/demanding posters will not read the rules, but as the others say we can point them to those rules once they have broken them, or just answer £8060 or 42!
kindest regards,
Shaun.

Meadowlands · Senior Member

Joanne

Just to Echo Shaun - I was defending you, you are always so helpful. I have really benefitted from your (and others) answers over the last couple of years. It annoys me when people are rude to people genuinely trying to help and they shouldn't receive the benefit of your wisdom for nowt. I would never post on Aweb - admittedly since the layout change I can barely read it - they are really scary over there.

abacus12345 · Guru

Agree regarding AWEB. Unless you already know the answer, don't ask the question. If you ask the question, make sure you quote your findings with extracts from the income tax act lol. Only ask questions a tax barrister wouldn't know the answer to. :)

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Meadowlands wrote:
Joanne

Just to Echo Shaun - I was defending you, you are always so helpful. I have really benefitted from your (and others) answers over the last couple of years. It annoys me when people are rude to people genuinely trying to help and they shouldn't receive the benefit of your wisdom for nowt. I would never post on Aweb - admittedly since the layout change I can barely read it - they are really scary over there.

Thank you. Looks like I was over-thinking it. I really appreciate your comments.

I do love this site!!!!

Leger · Master Book-keeper

Shamus wrote:
Maybe John could confirm whether this poster is now his client?

I've given a price Shaun but as yet I haven't received a response. However, it's abbreviated accounts deadline rather than a CT600, so it may well be that she is able to manage that on her own with a bit of breathing space before the CT600's need doing.

Thanks for the vote of confidence Joanne, although with Ltd Companies I only do them if they are relatively straight forward

Incidentally, with agents not being able to submit CT600 using HMRC, is there any way of finding out if there is more than CT600 to submit? Not an issue with this one if I get it as I can check on the HMRC portal as its last year, I'm just thinking for the future.

abacus12345 · Guru

You're a braver man than me John!