The Book-keepers Forum (BKF)
The Book-keepers Forum (UK) -> Book-keeping Training, Qualifications and Professional Bodies -> What training for a would be bookkeeper?
Post Info TOPIC: What training for a would be bookkeeper?
Scully


Newbie

Status: Offline
Posts: 1
Date:
What training for a would be bookkeeper?
Permalink  

First posting from a would be bookkeeper.

For the past few years I've successfully done my own and my partners books and completed our self assessments.  This is the limit of my bookkeeping knowledge and we have very simple accounts to file.

Now I found the ICB and looked at their courses thinking firstly it may help me better understand how to do our accounts as my partners business gets busier.  I got intrigued by lots of testimonials from people who allegedly have no experience in bookkeeping setting up their own businesses.  Now I'm not happy with what I do and am looking for a career change.

So my question is two-fold given that I want to continue working for myself what is the best qualification to go for?  Would I really have enough knowledge at the end of the course to set up by myself and has anyone done it from a non-finance background?

I'm happy to go down the distance learning route having just completed a degree through the OU.

Any advice/suggestions gratefully accepted.



__________________
abacus12345


Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 1363
Date:
Permalink  

Hi,

I would advise IAB for self employment. I won't go into my opinions of the ICB due to the possibility of being barred from the forum.

I started with the ICB, I then completed AAT, I then acquired membership and a practice licence from the IAB, using my AAT as exemptions.

The question of will you have enough knowledge only you will know, if you study the course, plus read elsewhere, and keep things basic, such as dealing with sole traders, then I personally would say yes.

I'm biased though, clearly.

Most will say you need experience. You have some experience, so assuming you were able to complete the accounts correctly therein is your answer.

It goes without saying that it is an advantage to have experience.

I have myself discovered outside of textbooks -

clients are not so clean and clinical.

Nothing is as simple as it looks.

You'll need working papers to show all your calculations in an excel file to show how you have arrived at your figures.

Information relating to

Bank rec's / debtors / creditors/ vat rec's etc.

There is more. The books show you how to do it in a clinical, minimal way - the books seldom, in fact I've never read one, where you are given examples to working papers, how to format them, why you need to keep them.

The logistics if you like, of running a practice are not covered in books.

Having said all the above, with bank rec's etc - seemingly with the cloud software, all you'll need is an ipad.



-- Edited by abacus12345 on Wednesday 24th of February 2016 04:07:39 PM

__________________

Johnny  - Owner of an overly-active keyboard. 

A man who can read, yet doesn't, is in no way wiser than a man who can't.

 
Shamus


Forum Moderator & Expert

Status: Offline
Posts: 11981
Date:
Permalink  

Why would you be barred from the forum Johnny.

so long as what you say is true and verifiable then nobody here is going to bar you.

There is a reason that neither the ICB or their training companies post on this site anymore!

__________________

Shaun

Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
Shamus


Forum Moderator & Expert

Status: Offline
Posts: 11981
Date:
Permalink  

Hi Liz,

take a look at ACCA-X for starters and then think about whether you want to progress to AAT / CAT / IAB / IFA / AIA / etc.

The first few modules of ACCA-X are free and there is plenty of additional free materials on OpenTuition so that will really work as a good start for youi to decide whether this career path is the right one for you before you invest too much of your own money.

AAT is a really good, well respected qualification. Remember that as a bookkeeper whether self employed or not you will be working with Accountants so it helps if you have a qualification that they rate and you will find that many chartered started out on the AAT path so your bit of paper means something to them.

HTH and welcome to the forum,

kindest regards,

Shaun.



__________________

Shaun

Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
abacus12345


Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 1363
Date:
Permalink  

Hi,

Ok, here goes, my experiences of the ICB - if anybody feels that they can counter my opinions, feel free.

Before entering this profession, I, like most new starters had no clue of all the other bodies and qualifications.

After a bit of googlefu, I assumed, as you do that the ICB was a grand idea - so I set this as my goal.

I sign up to a training provider, goodbye £1000+ (Level 1/2/3)

Now, during my studies I had no issues, all felt ok. I didn't know any other way, how could I?

Exams - expensive, ok they all are, however how many bodies allow you to sit X amount at home? Hmmmm.

So anyway, all exams passed. Job done. Pay my membership, from jumping from a student to a member.

All ready for a practice licence - yippee. Start looking for an employed job....What? Where is asking of ICB in job descriptions???

Ok, I'm thinking to myself here, self employment is the only way to go now, I've made a massive mistake -

At this point I'm floating around accountingweb, AAT keeps showing it's face - this time I do my research, I check job adverts - bingo!!

I'm still unsure of self employment at this point -

I sign up with the AAT, together with Kaplan.

I start reading through level 3 of the AAT texts, the level I started on with Kaplan. It appears that I have not learnt anything of substance from the ICB.

VAT for starters???? What's all that about.
Self assessment?? Now I completed and passed SA with the ICB, there is no chance of passing AAT tax with that knowledge!!

There is, or was, MASSIVE holes in the ICB syllabus, whether that being down to the ICB, or the training provider, I'm not sure.

Even basic double entry in some parts was missing.

Also ICB does not carry QCF status on their exams - meaning outside of the ICB, they mean nothing.

What do you get from your membership of the ICB? Regular free CPD? All I received whilst a member of the ICB was an invoice each year asking me to pay my fees.

Absolutely nothing gained from the ICB for me. Nothing - Apart from the disappointment within myself for being part of it all.

The 'institution' is a cash cow. It offers nothing to its members.

It's only once you start looking elsewhere you realise.

It doesn't, or didn't accept ACCA students / members for exemptions without passing a test...

There are so many connected people in charge / running the show over there it's hard to keep up with it all.

If you are a student of the ICB - I'd add these to your reading to make up for what most likely isn't in your syllabus.

Melville's tax
Business accounts - David Cox
BPP - C03 CIMA fundamentals of business maths


If you have different opinions to mine then please go ahead and list them.

Thanks





-- Edited by abacus12345 on Wednesday 24th of February 2016 06:13:38 PM

__________________

Johnny  - Owner of an overly-active keyboard. 

A man who can read, yet doesn't, is in no way wiser than a man who can't.

 
Leger


Master Book-keeper

Status: Offline
Posts: 3904
Date:
Permalink  

abacus12345 wrote:

1.  All ready for a practice licence - yippee. Start looking for an employed job....What? Where is asking of ICB in job descriptions???

2.  VAT for starters???? What's all that about.

3.  Self assessment?? Now I completed and passed SA with the ICB, there is no chance of passing AAT tax with that knowledge!!

4.  If you are a student of the ICB - I'd add these to your reading to make up for what most likely isn't in your syllabus.

Melville's tax
Business accounts - David Cox
BPP - C03 CIMA fundamentals of business maths

-- Edited by abacus12345 on Wednesday 24th of February 2016 06:13:38 PM

 Hi Johnny

First of all, I only have limited knowledge of the ICB, so if my comments are misplaced, please say

1.  What made you think ICB was an entry into employment?  As far as I am aware that isn't something it does at all, it's solely a vehicle to become a self employed bookkeeper

2.  Does it not do any training on VAT?  That does surprise me, as a s/e bookkeeper would need to know about VAT.

3.  Although it does now extend training beyond trial balance for those that want to do self assessments, I don't think it was it's original aim.  I thought that was what AAT was for, if you wanted to get on the bottom rung of accountancy.

4.  Why would the top and bottom books need to be read by someone studying ICB?  Middle book may be of some value, I don't know the book in question to comment. 



__________________

John 

 

 

 Any advice given is for general guidance and professional advice should be sought applicable to your circumstances.
abacus12345


Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 1363
Date:
Permalink  

Ok,

Point 1) One assumes that a qualification would open doors to potential employment. Most qualifications can open doors to employment, most qualifications do not immediately open the door to self employment.
2) The VAT element was more how to log the double entry - invoices. No reference to the VAT act, no substance at all.
3) Don't understand the question
4) If someone is studying the SA exam with the ICB, with the view to become self employed, Melville is essential. I think the need for business maths speaks for itself?



__________________

Johnny  - Owner of an overly-active keyboard. 

A man who can read, yet doesn't, is in no way wiser than a man who can't.

 
Shamus


Forum Moderator & Expert

Status: Offline
Posts: 11981
Date:
Permalink  

Hi John,

top book (Melvilles Taxation) should be read by everyone in this profession. Its a tad expensive compared to some of the professional bodies texts for a book that you have to buy new every year but for a fundamental knowledge of tax sufficient not to be phased by clients random strange request accept no substitute.

As for should it be read by someone studying ICB, as you noted yourself, ICB is no good for employment, only self employment. As a self employed bookkeeper even if you do not file tax returns a core understanding a tax is a key skill so that you kn ow when something is wrong even if you do not take care of resolving the matter.

Worry not, it's not like a Tolley's tax guide, much more user freindly with around 500 examples to work through as you go.

The last book is published under several different names with versions associated with all major bodies. Its just key business maths which is more of a prepare to study accountancy type book.... After saying that there are so many different versions of it I just had a look in my library and I don't have any of them.

On the employment line I think that you will find that in the past all sorts of rash comments have been made in order to secure market share. It doesn't take much to find some of the classic debates on here espechially in relation to such rash claims compared to Reed job ads and also the fabled statistics.

To bring balance to the force though I will say that everything being spoken about here is past tense and from comments in this thread I do not believe that we are talking about the current syllabus.

People should do their own investigations on all potential bodies..... before making their decision the become a student of the AAT!




__________________

Shaun

Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
abacus12345


Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 1363
Date:
Permalink  

I can not recommend AAT enough.

Lays the foundation well in the mind. Can lead to employment - can lead to self employment - university.

Dare I say its seen off CAT??

Well respected qualification. Member of IFAC. I would like to see it receive a royal charter one day. ACAT, sounds good? No? I do think there is scope for a level 5 to AAT, maybe an advanced taxation coupled with advanced financial reporting. Say, ACCA's F6 F7 level.

Can lead to bigger and better things. Land a gig in practice, paves a way to chartered status.

Just my opinions.

I wish I'd discovered this forum before I became a student of the ICB. All this is in the past now, what is done is done.



-- Edited by abacus12345 on Wednesday 24th of February 2016 10:43:22 PM

__________________

Johnny  - Owner of an overly-active keyboard. 

A man who can read, yet doesn't, is in no way wiser than a man who can't.

 
Leger


Master Book-keeper

Status: Offline
Posts: 3904
Date:
Permalink  

abacus12345 wrote:

Ok,

Point 1) One assumes that a qualification would open doors to potential employment. Most qualifications can open doors to employment, most qualifications do not immediately open the door to self employment.
2) The VAT element was more how to log the double entry - invoices. No reference to the VAT act, no substance at all.
3) Don't understand the question
4) If someone is studying the SA exam with the ICB, with the view to become self employed, Melville is essential. I think the need for business maths speaks for itself?

 Hi Johnny

I remember some years ago enrolling for the IAB course through HLC, when I first started doing my employers accounts. I thought it would be a good thing to get some training under my belt  (My boss gave me a copy of Sage and basically said, get on with it lol) It was only when speaking to the external accountant a couple of days later and he said, never heard of AIB.  At that time I thought the training company were pulling a fast one (scores of complaints on the internet about HLC themselves) so cancelled within the cooling of period.  Obviously I've heard of IAB now, but the accountant hadn't, and that put me off.

Question 3  Just noticed you did the SA with ICB,  sorry, ignore my answer.  Interesting that it doesn't seem to give you what AAT does, I had assumed it was a similar qualification.

My comments about the books was from a purely bookkeeping prospective, not based on venturing into SA territory.  But you make a fair point.  Book 3 was the CIMA title, which is on a much higher level than ICB.  (Shaun's comments noted)

 

Hi Shaun.

Just clicked on Melville's Tax Book, expecting it to be outside my budget.  £36 not over expensive if it helps as you describe.  Obviously we're coming to the end of the financial year, am I best waiting for the next one or will FA2015 still benefit me?

 



__________________

John 

 

 

 Any advice given is for general guidance and professional advice should be sought applicable to your circumstances.
abacus12345


Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 1363
Date:
Permalink  

The CIMA book is entry level. Melville is valid up until 31st January surely? AAT and ICB are chalk and cheese. I've heard only poor things of the HLC. As I say, you live and learn.

__________________

Johnny  - Owner of an overly-active keyboard. 

A man who can read, yet doesn't, is in no way wiser than a man who can't.

 
Shamus


Forum Moderator & Expert

Status: Offline
Posts: 11981
Date:
Permalink  

Hi John,

FA15 is good for next January and a lot of the concepts won't change between this and the next version... However... If you are anything like me if I have read a book I find it difficult to read another version of it immediately so I alternate between the Meville book and the Kaplan Text for ACCA paper P6 (Advanced Taxation).

Its my learning style that I cannot learn by just reading I have to do excercises trying things out for myself for it to really sink in so I find texts like Tolleys aand BPP quite difficult reads. Where Kaplan and Melville suit me.

I've tried a couple of other books professing to be just like Melville but they are really not.

Sorry, getting off subject a bit. What I was getting to was that for your first read I would try to get a version fresh off the presses in August so that you have a full years worth of dip in and out study as well as being able to use the book as a reference (Melville is pretty well indexed).

Then get Kaplan ACCA F6 (Taxation) for the year following, Then Melville, Then Kaplan ACCA P6 (Advanced Taxation), then back to Melville and repeat the cycle ad infinitum.

Your tax skills won't be anywhere near CTA level with that but they will be more than you will ever need to use and that strength of knowledge will add to your confidence when dealing with not just clients but also accountants.

Maybe later this year we should start a BKN book club where loads of people buy the same book at the same time in order to work through it together? Just a thought but it could motivate people to seriously improve area's of their knowledge base. What do you think? It would have to be on the back burner for now as way too busy at the min but just one of those ideas for the site that might have a bit of mileage.

__________________

Shaun

Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
abacus12345


Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 1363
Date:
Permalink  

Count me in for the book club, sounds ace.

__________________

Johnny  - Owner of an overly-active keyboard. 

A man who can read, yet doesn't, is in no way wiser than a man who can't.

 
abacus12345


Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 1363
Date:
Permalink  

Can I just add in regards to melville - the FA 15 edition was one of the first publications and due to the election upcoming at the time, there have been some additional updates on the publishers website to update the book to reflect this.

__________________

Johnny  - Owner of an overly-active keyboard. 

A man who can read, yet doesn't, is in no way wiser than a man who can't.

 
Cheshire


Master Book-keeper

Status: Offline
Posts: 8646
Date:
Permalink  

Shamus wrote:



Maybe later this year we should start a BKN book club where loads of people buy the same book at the same time in order to work through it together? Just a thought but it could motivate people to seriously improve area's of their knowledge base. What do you think? It would have to be on the back burner for now as way too busy at the min but just one of those ideas for the site that might have a bit of mileage.

 First one is at your house then!!!!!   Who needs Mills and Boone.

Seriously though - good idea!



__________________

 Joanne 

Winner of Bookkeeper of the Year 2015, 2016 & 2017 

Thoughts are my own/not to be regarded as official advice,which should be sought from a suitably qualified Accountant.

You should check out answers with reference to the legal position
Leger


Master Book-keeper

Status: Offline
Posts: 3904
Date:
Permalink  

I thought all the ladies that read Mills & Boone had switched to 50 shades of grey!

which I've never read but have read 50 shades of gravy, now that was saucy smile

 

Count me in on the book club thingy



__________________

John 

 

 

 Any advice given is for general guidance and professional advice should be sought applicable to your circumstances.
Cheshire


Master Book-keeper

Status: Offline
Posts: 8646
Date:
Permalink  

rofl.gifOh we havent had a John joke for ages!!!!!!!



__________________

 Joanne 

Winner of Bookkeeper of the Year 2015, 2016 & 2017 

Thoughts are my own/not to be regarded as official advice,which should be sought from a suitably qualified Accountant.

You should check out answers with reference to the legal position
Leger


Master Book-keeper

Status: Offline
Posts: 3904
Date:
Permalink  

lol, who was that guy who used to post a Friday fun thread, Dave I think it was. He disappeared not long after I joined here, I think he had some health issues with his knees.  Some of them were quite good.



__________________

John 

 

 

 Any advice given is for general guidance and professional advice should be sought applicable to your circumstances.
Shamus


Forum Moderator & Expert

Status: Offline
Posts: 11981
Date:
Permalink  

Leger wrote:

I think he had some health issues with his knees.  Some of them were quite good.

 I'm pretty sure that he only had the two John? biggrin



__________________

Shaun

Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
Leger


Master Book-keeper

Status: Offline
Posts: 3904
Date:
Permalink  

biggrinbiggrin



__________________

John 

 

 

 Any advice given is for general guidance and professional advice should be sought applicable to your circumstances.
abacus12345


Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 1363
Date:
Permalink  

Hi John. Yes I've looked around, I can't see any reason as to why this couldn't be a valid option.

__________________

Johnny  - Owner of an overly-active keyboard. 

A man who can read, yet doesn't, is in no way wiser than a man who can't.

 
abacus12345


Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 1363
Date:
Permalink  

I've posted the above ^ ^ ^ on the wrong thread. Fgs grrrr

__________________

Johnny  - Owner of an overly-active keyboard. 

A man who can read, yet doesn't, is in no way wiser than a man who can't.

 
Cheshire


Master Book-keeper

Status: Offline
Posts: 8646
Date:
Permalink  

Shamus wrote:
Leger wrote:

I think he had some health issues with his knees.  Some of them were quite good.

 I'm pretty sure that he only had the two John? biggrin

 Oh yes the Milk Tray Dave who promised be chocolates and never delivered!  cry



__________________

 Joanne 

Winner of Bookkeeper of the Year 2015, 2016 & 2017 

Thoughts are my own/not to be regarded as official advice,which should be sought from a suitably qualified Accountant.

You should check out answers with reference to the legal position
Lyndsey


Senior Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 321
Date:
Permalink  

abacus12345 wrote:


I started with the ICB, I then completed AAT, I then acquired membership and a practice licence from the IAB, using my AAT as exemptions.


-- Edited by abacus12345 on Wednesday 24th of February 2016 04:07:39 PM

 Hi

 

Would you mind me asking what services you are allowed to offer under your AAT exemptions on your IAB practice licence? Are you restricted to just bookkeeping or are you able to offer tax returns / limited company accounts? I am looking at doing AAT to extend on my ICB qualifications (I think I have the same as you ICB plus SA and Payroll). 

Thanks

Lyndsey



__________________
abacus12345


Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 1363
Date:
Permalink  

Hi There are no restrictions. You are able to do whatever you feel confident in doing. The reason I've not been back over to the aat yet is I have no Ltd company experience. I could become a MAAT MIP tomorrow, but I'd be restricted to sole traders. Once a MAAT you're restricted. So the plan is, gain some Ltd clients, after 12 months use this experience against MAAT, job done. HTH

__________________

Johnny  - Owner of an overly-active keyboard. 

A man who can read, yet doesn't, is in no way wiser than a man who can't.

 
Lyndsey


Senior Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 321
Date:
Permalink  

the only LTD I will have is my Brother in laws accounts (sole director) which I will currently pass onto Accountant to do final accounts/returns, but I do have a partnership which I think will go limited at some point. I wanted to expand from ICB, their level 4 Diploma (when it is finally released) should allow you to offer LTD returns and filing. So I have been looking at AAT (if I can get it under the 24+ loan I will have to upfront costs, until I am working pretty much full time. I currently work part-time self employed around small children!

To become MAAT do you need to work in a practice, or can self employed work count?

 

Thanks



-- Edited by Lyndsey on Saturday 27th of February 2016 02:20:24 PM

__________________
abacus12345


Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 1363
Date:
Permalink  

Self employment is allowable yes. You'd just need a client to give you a reference. Or join AAT branch meetings, get a MIP to review your work. Definitely go for the AAT. Also if you're able to get the loan, your laughing.

__________________

Johnny  - Owner of an overly-active keyboard. 

A man who can read, yet doesn't, is in no way wiser than a man who can't.

 
abacus12345


Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 1363
Date:
Permalink  

They have been releasing level 4 for as long as Axle Rose has been releasing the next guns and Roses album.

__________________

Johnny  - Owner of an overly-active keyboard. 

A man who can read, yet doesn't, is in no way wiser than a man who can't.

 
Lyndsey


Senior Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 321
Date:
Permalink  

Haha yes! I did ask when I was on the phone to them a few days ago, and they were very limited with the details. I did say I was looking at AAT too... I will most likely get both levels of AAT done before the ICB level 4 is sorted.

I've been emailing First Intuition, looks quite a good deal, no upfront costs at all, Kaplan will only cover exam costs if you take it at their centre (30+ mile drive each way, not what I want before exam!) and BPP don't cover exam costs at all with the 24+ loan. And I think First Tuition won the bookkeeping awards for training this year.



-- Edited by Lyndsey on Saturday 27th of February 2016 03:27:35 PM

__________________
Cheshire


Master Book-keeper

Status: Offline
Posts: 8646
Date:
Permalink  

Hi Lyndsay
Yes First Intuition and Nick Craggs (poster on here) both won.....click on the 'bookkeeping hall of fame' banner near top of the page.

24+ loan will only cover you for level 3 and 4 AAT. No exemptions for ICB, except a module or two at bookkeeping, rather than Accounting level, so to avoid level 2 you need to pass a skills test, the is one on the AAT website.



-- Edited by Cheshire on Saturday 27th of February 2016 03:28:33 PM

__________________

 Joanne 

Winner of Bookkeeper of the Year 2015, 2016 & 2017 

Thoughts are my own/not to be regarded as official advice,which should be sought from a suitably qualified Accountant.

You should check out answers with reference to the legal position
Page 1 of 1  sorted by
 
Quick Reply

Please log in to post quick replies.
The Book-keepers Forum (UK) -> Book-keeping Training, Qualifications and Professional Bodies -> What training for a would be bookkeeper?
Tweet this page Post to Digg Post to Del.icio.us
Members Login
Username 
 
Password 
    Remember Me  
©2007-2024 The Book-keepers Forum (BKF). All Rights Reserved. The Book-keepers Forum (BKF) is a trading division of Bookcert Ltd. Registered in England Company Number 05782923. 2 Laurel House, 1 Station Rd, Worle, Weston-super-Mare, North Somerset, BS22 6AR, United Kingdom. The Book-keepers Forum and BKF are trademarks of Bookcert Ltd. This forum is a discussion forum only. There will usually be more than one opinion to any question and any posting should not be viewed as a definitive solution. No responsibility for loss occasioned to any person acting or refraining from action as a result of any posting on this site is accepted by the contributors or The Book-keepers Forum. In all cases, appropriate professional advice should be sought before making a decision. We reserve the right to remove any postings which are offensive, libellous, self-promoting or engaged in covert marketing. We will not notify users of removals. The views expressed in the forum posts are those of the individual and do not necessary reflect or agree with those of The Book-keepers Forum. Any offensive or unsuitable posts will be removed by the moderators. Any reader of this forum can request for a post to be looked into by sending an email to: bookcertltd@gmail.com.

Privacy & Cookie Policy  About