I am in the process of developing a CIS payroll management application for builders and constructions contractors. I hope that nobody mines me posting here but I am looking for feedback on my idea to see if it is worth developing further. I have used a beta version of this for my own construction company for the last 8 years and it has been a huge help for us, I would hope it could be of a similar help to other builders, contractors, and their respective accountants and book-keepers.
I've produced a basic site that helps to describe the concept for those that are interested in taking a look:
Well we certainly would not be wanting to send payslips to sub-contractors. That would make us vulnerable to HMRC saying they are employees and for us to be liable for back tax and NI.
We do struggle with getting some of them to construct proper invoices and software that incorporated a fully itemised time sheet would be helpful in terms of us costing our job if they are working on a day rate basis.
Hi, thanks for taking the time to supply some feedback, it is much appreciated.
Regarding payslips, as I'm sure you know of course, it is an obligation of the contractor to supply the subcontractor with a statement or 'payslip' as I've referred to it, but I agree that perhaps payslips is the wrong terminology to use, as it might imply that they are a permanent employee.
FYI: I have had a number of disreputable subcontractors and their lawyers attempt to make bogus claims for holiday pay, but when they register they agree to a contract that confirms their self employed status, which would also function as protection against HMRC claims I would hope.
I agree that subcontractors are not the best at providing proper paperwork, or even supplying the proper details, which is why I include online timesheeting, and autochecking of things like bank sort codes, tax code verification, VAT number verification etc.
Please do keep me posted on other bits of feedback!
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PayCloud. CIS Payroll software for UK builders and construction contractors.
Well we certainly would not be wanting to send payslips to sub-contractors. That would make us vulnerable to HMRC saying they are employees and for us to be liable for back tax and NI.
I do payslips for CIS but they are a proper CIS payslip, and show total and CIS deductions. It is a feature built into Moneysoft and works well. However there is no obligation to provide one as long as you give them a payment certificate every month.
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John
Any advice given is for general guidance and professional advice should be sought applicable to your circumstances.
I guess 'payslip' would refer to a straightforward confirmation of some sort regarding ad-hoc or weekly payments, to let a subcontractor know that they are to be paid, or have been paid. (PayCloud deals with this by sending an email to let a subcontractor know when their payment has been approved, and again when it has been marked as being paid. This has helped my company to avoid lots of inevitable calls from subcontractors on payments day demanding to know if they have been paid or not.)
At the end of the CIS month (i.e. the 6th) PayCloud collates the sum total of all of the payments for that month and creates a 'certificate' or 'statement' that is issued automatically to the subcontractor by email (no need to do this manually), and that same data then also forms part of the contractor monthly return (which is also auto-submitted following confirmation by the user.)
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PayCloud. CIS Payroll software for UK builders and construction contractors.
Hi Pictures, thank you for your feedback on this. I'm interested that you require a purchase order number and accompanying quotation. We could build in a feature that would allow a subcontractor to attach a file to their application, i.e. the relevant approved quote, and enter a purchase order number in the notes.
The PayCloud system has two sets of forms for payment applications, one for hourly / daily rates, and another for a contract rate. The user can also add material costs as a separate item as obviously these are regarded differently by HMRC.
Robert
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PayCloud. CIS Payroll software for UK builders and construction contractors.
I'm interested to hear how you made the double lane of running a construction company, and developing software?? I sometime have ideas for software but wouldnt know where to start :)
-- Edited by FoxAccountancyServices on Thursday 5th of November 2015 11:25:07 AM
Hi Robert Ive not looked at it too much (no time) - but key from a bookkeepers perspective is getting that invoice. A common missing piece of the puzzle. Not fussed about the purchase order/quote stuff. Oh I shouldve added - something John mentions - we use Moneysoft which we have already paid for to do payroll - we get CIS effectively for free, so its the cost which would be key as well as functionality. Plus there are quite a few of us who do not use cloudy software like xero for reasons mentioned many times on this site, so intergration would need to be looked at for Sage, VT, Quickbooks etc.
-- Edited by Cheshire on Thursday 5th of November 2015 03:16:59 PM
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Joanne
Winner of Bookkeeper of the Year 2015, 2016 & 2017
Thoughts are my own/not to be regarded as official advice,which should be sought from a suitably qualified Accountant.
You should check out answers with reference to the legal position
Obtaining the invoice, and making sure it has all of the correct details, is one of the things that convinced me to build this system in the first place.
PayCloud deals with this by having the subcontractor apply for their payment online using a webform. Doing this ensures that they submit all of the necessary details to process the payment (i.e.: bank details, tax numbers, home address, VAT number etc.) Not only that but it verifies these details to make sure they are correct, such as the VAT number, bank details checked against a database of sort codes and account numbers, tax details verified with HMRC.
The basic rule we apply is 'no payment application, no payment'. If people want to get paid, and they generally do, then the onus is upon them to submit that application. Sometimes people object to doing this, but very rarely, and they get to like it as it eliminates errors that lead to delays in payments being made.
Robert
p.s. Michelle, it takes a lot of evenings and lunchtimes to get a piece of software together!
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PayCloud. CIS Payroll software for UK builders and construction contractors.
Hi John When you say payslips from Moneysoft - I thought you meant payment certificate? Is there something else? That Im missing??
Hi Joanne
Go to CIS payment details. Put the details for that week/month then click on the yellow envelope with the red arrow pointing right and it will produce the payslip, showing gross pay and CIS deduction. I tend to send them when it's weekly then send the payment certificate after the 5th of the month.
Also, I'm not sure if this will help you, but you can also produce a self invoice from the subby. It's handy for my client as it's labour only and it saves them the hassle of waiting for the invoice. Once you've put the pay in for that period click on CIS and subcontractor invoice to see what I mean.
Hi Robert
The software looks good and I think, for the harassed contractor, would be quite a boon as you say. I can't see any advantage for me as, like Joanne, I use Moneysoft and it's a dream to work with.
Just one quibble with your comparison pricing. I can't see an accountant charging £60 to do a CIS payroll for 5 subbies (I could be wrong though) In your comparison you've put set up subbie and verification as if they are a monthly cost, they aren't. You've also put £2.50 for calculating tax, yet the accountants software will do that automatically, so what is that based on? Not sure on cost of queries, depends on the client I suppose, but there's a massive difference between an accountant's cost and paycloud cost.
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John
Any advice given is for general guidance and professional advice should be sought applicable to your circumstances.
Hi John
My client used to say - no invoice, no pay!! Also - only did one payment a month so I never even thought to send a payslip, just the CIS cert. Ive had a quick look and its the same screen for payroll and payslips isnt it - just for CIS, - thanks for that. I had just gotten rid of my last CIS client a couple of months ago but starting with another one tomorrow.
Hi Robert
I do agree with John - from my experience and yours could be very different, I think the comparison pricing is over egging it somewhat, but hey - its all about the marketing! You didnt mention the other more popular accounting software - are you planning to roll it out to them as Im sure that not all on here use Moneysoft like John and I do.
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Joanne
Winner of Bookkeeper of the Year 2015, 2016 & 2017
Thoughts are my own/not to be regarded as official advice,which should be sought from a suitably qualified Accountant.
You should check out answers with reference to the legal position
Hi John My client used to say - no invoice, no pay!!
That's the client's prerogative and it's a good policy imo, certainly ensures the invoice goes in!. With my last one it was a small building firm with just one subbie, weekly paid, so it was easier for them just to have a self invoice.
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John
Any advice given is for general guidance and professional advice should be sought applicable to your circumstances.
Hi John
It probably saves a lot of hassle, so thanks for that one.
Hi Robert
On this theme, I'm not sure if your webform has all the information needed to cover off the 'what is needed on a VAT invoice' requirements per HMRC regs ....one I'm sure you will have covered. But just though, if you did want to consider including a VAT self billing option, if VAT is involved for both parties there are very specific VAT rules so I have included the link. Some of the really big companies use VAT self billing.
I really appreciate all of the valuable feedback I'm receiving on here. I take your point regarding the pricing and will look at adapting this. I based my figures on what we were previously being charged by our outsourced book-keeper for dealing with CIS. Obviously any time that goes into administering a contractors subcontractor payroll constitutes a cost, and the idea of PayCloud is that it pretty much automates everything, in fact the only task is for the contractor to approve payment applications, and for monthly returns to be approved (they could be 100% automated but better that their is a manual confirmation.) I had also found that when an error occurred with CIS payments that it was often very time consuming to sort it out, so elimination of errors is one of the key advantages, as well as avoiding annoying queries from subcontractors!
I am wondered whether if the system had a means of linking to any / all popular accounting packages it would present a sufficient advantage over current methods that people are using for book-keepers to want to adopt it? What kind of pricing level and structure would be reasonable in order to make it cost effective to adopt it?
Best regards,
Robert
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PayCloud. CIS Payroll software for UK builders and construction contractors.
I just wondered about Moneysoft, how are all of the payments entered into the system? Do you have to do all of this manually, i.e. setting up subcontractor details, entering payments, and emailing statements?
Regarding PayCloud the intention is that users retain access to data indefinitely, regardless of whether they continue as a paid subscriber in order to use the full range of features. Subcontractors would also have indefinite access in order to retrieve statements, which saves having to deal with requests from subcontractors when they have lost of their paperwork!
Robert
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PayCloud. CIS Payroll software for UK builders and construction contractors.
Subbie details only need to be entered once, then you just put the pay details in each period, print/email the statement and submit to HMRC. You can do that from Moneysoft, but I preferred to do it through my agent login. I can see the advantage of the software in doing the legwork, especially if the subbie puts his timesheet in via the app, because it sounds like the whole process is done in a matter of minutes. Automation at it's best.
I'm glad to hear that you are still able to access historical data, because I think not being able to is the biggest drawback to a cloud offering.
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John
Any advice given is for general guidance and professional advice should be sought applicable to your circumstances.
