should I submit before payment? - The Book-keepers Forum (UK)

gem · Member

should I submit before payment?

ClareB4 · Senior Member

I would always ask for payment before submission.

Has he provided you with any evidence that you said you'd accept payment out of the repayment (which incidentally I assume goes to him and not to you!)? It sounds to me like he's just trying to put the frighteners on you by threatening you with solicitors.

Do you have a letter of engagement with him that states payment before submission?

Do you have a record of when you sent him the invoice and confirmation that figures were ready to be submitted? If so then I feel he wouldn't have a leg to stand on with his solicitor.

RobH · Expert

This guy is a joke and I guess many of us have had these types. He clearly has no intention of paying you. You have no obligation to submit the tax returns and if he wants to get further fines because they are not submitted he is going the right way around it. I'm no solicitor so my advice goes with that caveat, however I can't see he has a leg to stand on. He contracted you to do a job at an agreed fee so he needs to keep to his side of the deal. I seem to recall a contract is in place if there is an offer, an acceptance, consideration and it all being legal. The consideration is the fee and his non payment of it would appear to me to make in breach of the contract. Get a solicitor to send him a snooty letter demanding payment plus interest. Even if you don't pursue this, certainly lose no sleep over his empty threats, the guy can't even afford a solicitor.....these people make me a tad cross!

gem · Member

Hi Claire

I have the emails I sent him with the calculations attached, and a very basic agreement which states payment is required before submission. He couldnt provide anything to say Id take payment out of his repayment because it never happened

I havent and never would have a clients repayment into my account, and like I said even after submission he would still owe money.

I think hes trying it on in the hope that I would submit anyway... Then I wouldnt see him for dust..

Think Im just disheartened as I was genuinly trying to 'help him out' and he was one of my first SA clients :( Its horrible when someone tries to make you question yourself.

Thank you!

gem · Member

Thanks Rob, As I said to Claire, his 'threatening' TEXTS have been making me almost second guess myself, I did think that he probably hasnt actually sought any advice and is a bit of a chancer, just annoyed.

Princess · Senior Member

Oh my goodness. I have a client exactly the same and if I didn't still have a bin bag full of his paperwork here which he still hasn't collected after a year I would have thought it was the same man. Fortunately for me I only got as far as sorting out the 5 boxes of paperwork, opening his post etc which took me 10 hours. He then decided the price I quoted £2500 for 6 years (including bookkeeping of his terrible paperwork) was too high and said he'd go back to his old accountant. He paid me for a few more hours to split the paperwork out into financial year and then never came to collect it. He has more than £2500 in fines since I met him so it's ridiculous. I also took this guy on when I was starting out. I would never do it again. It didn't take long to get work from nice clients that apreciate what I do and are prepared to pay a reasonable fee for it. I would not under any circumstances submit his tax returns until he pays you.

FoxAccountancyServices · Expert

Tell him if he wants to go somewhere else, he will still owe you for the work, and that he cant have *anything* back until he pays. Threaten to take him to court if the bill is not paid within 30 days. You did the work, the submission is only the press of a button... and he wasn't only paying for you to press that button.

Send him a letter/email attaching the original agreement, and then stand your ground. You clearly have everything you said you would do in writing, and no doubt have emails chasing him for information.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

just as an adendum to Michelles post though. If he's a limited company you have no legal right of Lien over his books. Thats only if he's a sole trader / partnership.

For a limited company you would not have to give him anything that you have done but you cannot hold onto a limited companies books and records.

kind regards,

Shaun.

FoxAccountancyServices · Expert

Using the fact that the records should legally be held at the registered office might just get them to pay? I have heard of that being done before.. maybe on here !! LOL

gem · Member

Thanks guys... wish Id known about this forum a long time ago!

Princess Im sorry to hear that, have you taken further action? Ive offered him a 'payment plan' based on me splitting the agreed amount over the 5 years and me submitting a year at a time (most recent first to reduce the amount of penalty) and its not helped. Hes insisting Im doing him an injustice... V. frustrating!

Michelle, I am putting together a 'case' file including the original agreement, emails and other correspondance and will post this to him to see if this nudges him in the right direction. He reckons he spoke to HMRC and they told him not to pay me and to 'go to a reputable accountant' What a load of Bull....But I will enforce that I still expect payment regardless of his next move!

Shaun, Hes a self employed, one man band, painter and decorator, struggling with the recession, hence why I felt a bit sorry for him and gave him such a good price in the first place! He didnt even have much work over the 5 years!

Thank you so much to you all for the advice and support, its really got to me over the past couple of weeks!

I shall update you in due course!

Gem

gem · Member

Well, Michelle, this is what makes it even more frustrating, I offered him ongoing support, offered him speadsheet templates to help him keep his records more efficiently. At no extra charge!!! Grrr!! furious

FoxAccountancyServices · Expert

HMRC would never say that.. hes being an idiot, and saying anything he can to get his own way. Send him copies of your correspondence, together with your invoice and a letter that you will be taking him to the small claims court if he doesn't pay. Unfortunately its seems this one might only act if heavy force is given back.

I learnt this lesson a while ago and now I do one return at a time, and don't sort the next til I have been paid for the first.. sad to be that way but most aren't willing to give upfront payment, which is fair.. so I set my own boundary.

Best of luck with it all...

Amanda · Expert

Hi Gem,

Tell him to P*** Off!!! As Michelle says HMRC wouldn't tell him that as they don't know what accountants are good in his area or not, so he is just trying to frighten you.

Hold onto everything, it may be worth looking on the net for a debt collecting agency (some are very cheap now a days), just to start the ball rolling, that will shit him up and show you mean business. Keep all his paperwork, someone like that won't be in business for much longer and are probably crap at their job.

I know a painter and decorator (I don't do his books), and he is so busy he is doing 7 days a week and can't fit all his work in, this is because he is brilliant, we have used him before and he came on recommendation, so I expect your guy is just one of those looser's in life. Looser's in life always threaten in life as they are not intelligent enough to go about it the proper way.

HTH

REgards,

Princess · Senior Member

Funnily enough I decided I'd had enough of storing my guy's paperwork in a bin bag so I emailed him this morning and told him very politely to come and get it. He turned up and was very apologetic saying that he's paid all his HMRC fines off and that when we met before he didn't have any money but now he's rich. Nice. He asked if he can come back. I told him I'm busy till Christmas. I don't think I want to go there again. Like you, I'd offered him a good price to help him but it would involve more work than the average client as he's so disorganised and his records incomplete (lots of spiders and builders dust though!). I know the man needs help but I'm afraid he's going to have to find it somewhere else.

FoxAccountancyServices · Expert

Amanda wrote:
Hi Gem,

Tell him to P*** Off!!! As Michelle says HMRC wouldn't tell him that as they don't know what accountants are good in his area or not, so he is just trying to frighten you.

Hold onto everything, it may be worth looking on the net for a debt collecting agency (some are very cheap now a days), just to start the ball rolling, that will shit him up and show you mean business. Keep all his paperwork, someone like that won't be in business for much longer and are probably crap at their job.

I know a painter and decorator (I don't do his books), and he is so busy he is doing 7 days a week and can't fit all his work in, this is because he is brilliant, we have used him before and he came on recommendation, so I expect your guy is just one of those looser's in life. Looser's in life always threaten in life as they are not intelligent enough to go about it the proper way.

HTH

REgards,

What a woman!

Amanda · Expert

Sorry Michelle for the language, I use to be niave when I first started out, but I have hardened up since then as you can see.

Clients like that really do annoy me, which is why I am more selective now!

FoxAccountancyServices · Expert

No apologies necessary! :)

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

You poor thing! Yep, we've all had one, at least. Mine - I rang him every day, sometimes several times a day to get my money. I didnt give him his papers back, he asked but never collected them.

I would absolutely use this guys trick back on him - threaten to take him to court and then actually do it, the cost is relatively cheaply and can easily be done online! Ringing him lots, never at the same time each day (without stalking, obviously!) might make him pay just to get rid of you, but do NOT back down from such a bully. Fight fire with fire! Dont forget your emails are proof of what you agreed, plus his texts bulling you will not look good in court!

By the way - I got my money, took almost 3 months but there was NO WAY I was going to let him win.

You go girl