Giving advice above their ability - The Book-keepers Forum (UK)

HendyPhilhendy · Guru

Giving advice above their ability

cheapaccounting · Veteran Member

Have to agree with you Phil.

Notwithstanding that everyone needs to learn, progress etc

Acting within ability is essential for a good professional.

IMO (and happy to hear comment) bookkeepers arent there to just do the recording they are much more than that surely. It isnt just posting the transaction to the right place isnt it.

MarkS · Expert

Hi Phil

Got to agree with you on that one.

Only being using this site for a few weeks but even in that period it is clear that people may be advising clients on the back of information that may be posted on here.

Dont think would be the most solid of evidence if ever had to go to court.

Also some questions are being asked that people in their position should either know the answer to or know where to go and look or be able to advise someone to go and ask the question of.

MarkS

HendyPhilhendy · Guru

MarkS wrote:

Hi Phil

Got to agree with you on that one.

Only being using this site for a few weeks but even in that period it is clear that people may be advising clients on the back of information that may be posted on here.

Dont think would be the most solid of evidence if ever had to go to court.

Also some questions are being asked that people in their position should either know the answer to or know where to go and look or be able to advise someone to go and ask the question of.

MarkS

Had to read this a couple of times but yes, that makes sense!

ICBUK · Guru

Good point Phil,

I know most people here have their company name and website as their signature, so wonder if the advice is seen to be professional advice.

I know of a case a couple of years ago where a professional bookkeeper gave general advice in a pub during a conversation. The advice was taken as fact as the person was a professional, and later on this lead to trouble as the advice was not complete, or the 'client' missunderstood/gave wrong details etc.

I guess the good side is at least it is in writing here so you can prove what details were given and what you replied.

BudgetB · Guru

Isn't it better that someone asks a question than carries on regardless?

Yes, some of the questions on here are scary, but at least they've asked, and advice can be given to point them in the right direction. Without this forum, and it's ability to make everyone feel that they can ask any question no matter how basic, would people just be making it up and hoping for the best?

Let's not let this become like UKBF where asking a question can easily become a character assassination.

cheapaccounting · Veteran Member

Is there a difference between asking the question and knowing that by asking the question you do not have the skills necessary to deal with it?

For something I dont know the answer to my first question is always do I have the ability to deal with this.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Phil,

following on from your first sentence and just to give some balance to this thread.

Every year thousands of new bookkeepers are churned out by the training providers full of hope of starting their own business but with little realisation as to how difficult it is in the real world.

Bodies such as the ICB give help and support but for general day to day questions about what goes where and wanting to know where to look for information this site is a treasury of knowledge and experience and if the answer isn't here there is always someone willing to help.

on more than one occassion people such as Bill, Rob and Myself have picked people up on the advice that they are giving (but more commonly that they are trading without MLR).

However, I think that everyone will agree that we want people to continue to ask the questions and not to be afraid to ask something in case they feel that those answering may regard them as working beyond their level of experience.

We've seen what happens over on accounting web when someone asks a question that they shouldn't! For this site no question is ever regarded as stupid and people should be able to ask whatever is of concern to them.

This is finance, there is often more than one correct answer and tax questions espechially often spark healthy debate on here.

At the end of the day this site is by bookkeepers for bookkeepers regardless as to whether they have trained to a higher level or not. Lets not go the way of other sites and lets ensure that people keep on asking whatever it is that is of concern to them.

James,

Accountancy age had an article on HMRC's view of the man in the pub (see here) :

http://www.accountancyage.com/aa/news/1809935/concern-pub-caught-tax-advice-law

Some interesting points of view in the replies.

Kind regards,

Shaun.

Susie Sue · Senior Member

Totally agree with BudgetB and Shaun. People shouldn't be afraid to ask questions on here for fear of being ridiculed - we can go to other sites for that! I trust that if I get something wrong someone will let me know - but in a nice way biggrin

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Jenny,

sounds as though you snook in with a similar but more succinct response whilst I was composing mine. (Sounds as though UKBF and Accountingweb have similar approaches to questions from the unwary!).

Hi Elain,

how do people know what they should should know unless they ask the questions of those more experienced?

Training providers don't prepare new bookkeepers for the real world where clients ask questions and they don't know if they should know the answer or not.

From a clients perspective ask them what the difference is between a bookkeeper and an accountant and the closest that you'll get to an answer is "About £20 an hour!".

The problem is that clients don't know and as their first point of call it is down to the bookkeeper to tell them when they should be directing the questions to their accountant.

Asking questions on here means that new bookkeepers espechially are more confident of the scope (and limits) of their responsibilities.

cheapaccounting · Veteran Member

I think the two most important things I have learnt to say in my career:

I don't know but I can find out (where I think I can do the task if I find out a bit more or need to refresh my memory from tings covered in the past but that is just because Im really old!)

This isnt really something that I can cover for you. The person that you should be speaking with is (your accountant, lawyer, bank, etc etc) where it is outside of my knowledge, remit, training, ability etc

The world of bookkeeping, accounting and tax is HUGE none of us can expect to know it all.

None of us should be afraid to say we dont know as always it is the way that we say it.

I think the distinction is asking to get the answer and act on it or asking to get the answer that it should not be something within the OPs remit.

Hope that makes sense.

As you know if you have seen me on UKBF, I am happy to answer questions. However I will always point out where I feel appropriate than advice of the correct professional should be sought.

Getting things wrong these days is a very dangerous thing to do Im afraid.

HendyPhilhendy · Guru

I am not saying people should not ask questions, of course they should.

However, it is the level of client that people are taking on. It is also often the wrong question as it leads to other issues, which shows a dangerous lack of knowledge.

Does the ICB etc. ensure that members are given training/ advice on what they can and cannot take on or how they should advise when actually in practice?

ADAS · Guru

I don't understand how someone can ask a question on an internet forum, receive a response based on the specific phrasing of their question and then assume that constitutes professional advice.

cheapaccounting · Veteran Member

ADAS wrote:

I don't understand how someone can ask a question on an internet forum, receive a response based on the specific phrasing of their question and then assume that constitutes professional advice.

you'd be surprised how some think???!!!!!

ADAS · Guru

I'm sure you're right Elaine.

What I also find interesting about the thread that seems to have brought this matter up. The debate was largely amongst Accountants on the forum?

cheapaccounting · Veteran Member

Maybe because the accountants have to unravel it all at the year end ?

HendyPhilhendy · Guru

cheapaccounting wrote:

ADAS wrote:

I don't understand how someone can ask a question on an internet forum, receive a response based on the specific phrasing of their question and then assume that constitutes professional advice.

you'd be surprised how some think???!!!!!

I was just about to say the same kind of thing.

The point is really what I am trying to get at. People are taking the advice as read without consulting the client accountants or advising the client to get an accountant!

ADAS · Guru

cheapaccounting wrote:

Maybe because the accountants have to unravel it all at the year end ?

Hi Elaine

I appreciate it's a valid debate and asked some questions myself. What I was questioning was Phil specifically mentioned the thread as an example of bookkeepers giving advice beyond their capabilities. Having re-read the thread I don't think that was really the case.

-- Edited by ADAS on Tuesday 15th of February 2011 09:22:25 PM

ICBUK · Guru

cheapaccounting wrote:

ADAS wrote:

I don't understand how someone can ask a question on an internet forum, receive a response based on the specific phrasing of their question and then assume that constitutes professional advice.

you'd be surprised how some think???!!!!!

It is shocking, see Shamus' link to Accounting Web that covered that article on the bookkeeper in the pub story, or the ICB article which accidently uses an example which is similar: http://www.bookkeepers.org.uk/news/378

Amanda · Expert

Hi,

I have read this thread with interest, I am a bookkeeper not an accountant and I always say to my clients especially on tax matters to ask their accountant, after all thats what they are there for in the first place. I never give advise on things I don't know and try to blag it, it will always come back and bite you on the bum! I think it is important for clients to not only have a good relationship with me but to also have a good one with their accountant and feel that they can phone when necessary.

I do know of one Accountant who charged someone I knew £75 just for the privalage of picking up the phone, she was a new start up and just phoned for advise on his prices etc and what she neede to do etc, he never once mentioned that she would get charged for her 20 min phone call and was shocked when she had a bill for £75 + VAT, she didn't even have a consultation with him face to face, needless to say she asked me if I knew another accountant and she switched to someone else. God knows what he would have charged her for a year end!

I do agree that Bookkeepers shouldn't offer advise beyond their capabilities and should always offer to find out the answer from the accountant if necessary. Especially where it is a tax matter that can be complicated.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Amanda,

I'm thinking that although the call was only 20 mins the accountant probably had a minimum consultancy charge of perhaps two hours?

One has to ask though, how much money did your freind save on the back of 20 minutes advice from the accountant!

That said, I know some really good accountants who seem to care more about their clients businesses than their own and I know some who think of their companies bottom line and nothing else. My own opinion is that those in the first group seem to be doing much better than the latter which I suppose follows the old addage of love what you do and the money will follow.

Hope that your freind is now happy with their new accountant.

All the best,

Shaun.

Amanda · Expert

HI Shaun,

Good to see you are back on here alot more now! Has the job in Scotland finished now?

To be honest she was none the wiser after the phone call and felt ripped off, anyway gets on very well with the new one so at least it got sorted. Shes not a client of mine as her daughter does the bookkeeping.
I think you are right about the ones that care about the clients, I know a couple of good ones, one of which has given me a client so thats good. I'm hoping to sign up for my AAT tech (level 4) soon as want to build my knowledge. Then may consider the ATT like Rob at a later date. Need to earn some more money to pay for it!
cheers

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Amanda,

yep, got childcare issues for the next month so your stuck with me for at least that long... And anyway, it would have been unfair of me to have taken all of the banks money off them! (I wish!!!!).

You're going to need to get extended business cards once you've got all of the letters after your name. Once you've finished ATT I'm sure that it will be CTA next!... Actually, that doesn't sound a bad route for my post ACCA CPD. Might see you on the ATT course.

If I did do that route I did advanced performance management and advanced financial management rather than the advanced Taxation with my ACCA options papers so I'm assuming that I would have to start from the bottom level.

Glad your freinds now got an accountant that feel right for them. I've noticed in my life that my companies accountants tend to last longer than my marraiges so it's an important thing to get right.

gbm · Guru

An interesting thread with some interesting perspective. I think a lot of it comes from the desire to help, but there is always the huge downside if the person who is 'winging it' gets it wrong.

But, as mentioned, at least the questions are being asked and (hopefully) we are all learning.

Rhianrach · Expert

gbm wrote:

An interesting thread with some interesting perspective. I think a lot of it comes from the desire to help, but there is always the huge downside if the person who is 'winging it' gets it wrong.

But, as mentioned, at least the questions are being asked and (hopefully) we are all learning.

Everyone starts somewhere and with a lack of training posts people have to do what they can, it's difficult with finance as it's important to get it right but a lot of people in a lot of industries are having to lie about their competencies in the hope they can come good without too much damage.
It's a shame really because there are probably lots of people more than capable who could be very successful given the chance.
What would be good in my view is if there was a forum like this but you paid for it and have a live chat section where you could discuss with professionals any issues you may have at that moment, obviously the professionals get paid for their time and eventually you would end up with enough knowledge not to use the service anymore, this backed with an industry standard qualification that you must have to practice as either a Bookkeeper or an Accountant, this would help people who want to succeed but can't find the opening.

gbm · Guru

I was lucky, I made all my mistakes whilst I worked for someone else!

If only...