abacus12345 wrote:

---

Hi,

Sort of testing the water here for options and opinions.

 

Would you agree that per capita (so to speak) there are more opportunities for employment in industry, as an oppose to practice?

Yes, but it's also as much of a closed shop as the financial accounting side of the fence

I figure, jobs such as purchase / sales ledger jobs have a much higher turnover rate that a financial accounts assistant job, therefore more opportunities for those breaking into industry.

I don't understand what that line has to do with management accounting?

Using the above, is it fair to assume that sales / purchase ledger vacancies are the entry level job to be applying for within 'industry"?

Yes, but you may hit the issue that employers will not take you on in those roles if they feel that you are over qualified with them so will dump them as soon as something better comes along. Sales & Purchase ledger work are considered data entry roles. They are not management accounting simply because they are done on the corporate side of the fence.

I'm sensing, (purely own thoughts) that the main prerequisite to stand out from other candidates is how strong your excel skills are.

Excel is an assumed skill. It was only a couple of years back that I realised that people expected to see it on your CV as untill then I had categorised it like breathing in that if you work in this business then you know your way around Excel.

One problem with Excel on CV's is that everyone thinks that they are an expert but few actually are. That causes the issue that people say that they are an expert on their CVs meaning that it dosn't differentiate those who really are.

My mind is at present, here, there, and everywhere. Stuck between CIMA, and ATT - Employment or self employment.

If I get 2/3 of the way through CIMA, without landing a job, am I then over qualified for an entry level industry job?

yes... But, if you have both you can put down whichever qualification best suits the role that you are applying for. Personally I have far more qualifications that I include on my CV.

The issue that you face in industry is more likely to be that you are trying to break into that field later in life where generally the expectation is that you will have grown up either in industry or consultancy.

GRRR

I'd appreciate your thoughts, and thoughts of those who have travelled the industry route.

Thanks

 

---

ok, back to the egg on this one as its a huge subject.

The issue became apparent when you mentioned your assumption about Excel.

Excel is simply a given that you will have it and be able to use it quickly without thinking about it.

On the MA side of the fence there are lots of different specialisations and a huge amount of software which few people have everything that an employer wants but that doesn't stop the employers expecting candidates with an exact match.

To traverse that you need one particularly rare skill which will put you in a better positioon to get the job and pick up the others (maybe something like Tablaeu or SAP Lumira, either of which can be downloaded for free to train yourself).

Software specific issues aside you will also encounter issues over employers expecting the candidates to have in depth experience in the exact field that they are looking for.

For example, a management accountant from a background in logistics would have difficulty getting a management accountancy role in manufacturing even though both use similar skillsets.

Another issue you will have is that management accountancy does not seem particularly well defined in business.

Many people with job descriptions such as business analyst, data analyst, financial analyst, even project manager etc. all come under the remit of management accountancy.

Ignoring the software that you will encounter as blockers to employment I would say that key skills that are expected to be part of your DNA as a management accountant are :

MS Excel

MS Visio

MS Powerpoint

Swimlanes

Dataflow Diagrams

Entity life histories

User Stories

BPMN

Life Cycle's

Sure that I've missed loads out there but just wanted to get some down to show that Excel knowledge no matter how good it may be will not get you to interview on it' own (in fact even having everything on that list would not as thats pretty much a minimum expectation).

And the above list is before we start getting into things like SQL, Agile, Lean, Prince2, SSADM, Waterfall, Scrum, Six Sigma, MS Project, etc.

Then there are the soft skills such as the ability to organise and run meetings that will find the information that is needed from empire builders who do not want to share it.

The problem is that the reality of management accountancy is as far from peoples perceptions of it as the reality of running a bookkeeping business is to the beliefs of those who think that it's just about adding up columns of numbers.

But.... Like bookkeeping whilst the the door is difficult to open it is still slightly ajar and if you can get a role on that side of the fence then other better one's will open up... Just don't go for a data entry job if you expect to be a management accountant as some jobs, like some qualifications, can actively work against you finding employment in certain fields.

Hi Johnny
Cant add much, not having done this side of the finance fence in industry, but from the many companies Ive worked with/alongside the one thing that Ive noticed is that the sales/purchase ledger jobs seem to be done by the youngsters - late teens/early twenties.

I got the impression you were going to expand your offering on a s/e basis to Limiteds. Is this not an option? I now I mentioned not going beyond TB - how about what you do now for sole traders, but sticking to TB with some Limited companies? You can earn some good money and start to meet Accountants who, once you have proved your worth, offer more work/happy to intro you into other places.

Shamus wrote:

---

You would be quite amazed that the people working in those companies do not feel like lottery winners.

---

 I certainly wouldnt say that about working for Tesco!!!!!! Nightmare experience.

Hi Johnny,

it sounds as though you are going through a real soul searching conundrum at the moment.

It occurs to me that we do not know your age or anything of your career to date which somewhat restricts peoples ability to offer help and advice as to which way to go.

One thing that I feel that you will have a problem with is getting a job before you are fully qualified as there are already a lot of fully qualified, experienced yet still unemployed management accountants out there so you really need as many of your ducks in a row before you start looking as possible.

I cannot comment on CIMA but I know that with ACCA when employers specify PQ they are really saying that applicants must have passed at least the first nine papers and be on the home stretch... Some mean by PQ that people have passed all 14 of the exams but are stuck in the no mans land between affiliate status and membership because they lack the signed off experience requirement.

I do not know how far you are through CIMA but if it is only at the just become a student stage that is not what employers would regard as PQ status UNLESS you are in your early twenties and have just left Uni which is different.

Whilst not asking you to reveal too much about yourself could you at least indicate things like whether you are in your 30's? 40's? 50's? Whether you have a relevant degree? What industry you come from and whether you have held a managerial level role. All factors that could change peoples advice.

Morning Johnny,

Your a little younger than I expected... Actually you are younger than some of my children so I'm well practiced at this sort of chat.

Your age is really good from a career change perspective.

you're right, there is considerable overlap in the skillsets required for management accounting and IT work. If you think back to my list above I'm sure that you will recognise Dataflow Diagrams, Entity life histories, User Stories and BPMN.

The CVs need to be geared differently with emphasis on any analysis work that you have undertaken on the IT side.

The two options that you have identified are polar opposits.

If you choose ATT you are abandoning your prior experience to work towards becoming a self employed SME accountant.

If you choose CIMA there is actually more credibility to your career progression in that you can convince potential employers that you were furthering your analysis skillset with an industry recognised qualification that built upon your existing skillset with the intention of moving towards business analysis.

At 31 you are not too old to still get junior roles in business analysis and that is more of a stepping stone in the direction you want to go than the approach you seem to be adopting of looking to stop one career and start a different one that at face value interests you more.

If you were to go for a straight career change a relevant degree from a good Uni is much more important. Like yourself I don't have one but I wielded my skillset to move to where I wanted to be in small incremental steps so it was never an important consideration (#1).

Thats actually an interesting point. If you are in a role that requires you to have a degree to get it nobody ever asks you whether you have a degree or not as the expectation is that to be in the position that you are in you must have one.

To be honest, BA's and Bsc's are the new A levels anyway. You now need an MBA to have any hope of your qualification making a difference to your career prospects.

The key for you Johnny is that if you want employment over self emloyment you need somehow to use your existing brought forwwards knowledge base combined with CIMA study to find business analysis roles.

Hope that gives you something to think about as it feels that you need to be developing a game plan. If you don't you will keep being pulled in different directions not knowing which is the right one and eventually realising that five years of your life have gone by whilst you are treading water.

My approach would be to crank up Excel and create a five year plan to CIMA qualification.

Take a look at your relevant skills and rewrite your CV emphasising system experience, any analysis skills, size of systems that you have worked on, etc. Even if you are not yet applying for jobs the act of rewriting your CV will help ytou determin your direction.

Or, if the whole excercise leaves you cold then that answers the question over whether you should be choosing employment or self employment and you go down the ATT route.

I completely empathise with your conundrum. Practice and Corporate both have appeal and both have downsides. Sometimes when clients think that by getting "some" of the paperwork that you need by an HMRC deadline they are completely in the clear then the idea of returning to the far more professional corporate environment does seem quite appealing.

All the best,

Shaun.

#1 I had been accepted to study Law at a good Uni but a year out role in IT to build up some reserves pre Uni became a career. As most of the Chartered accountants that I know studied law it seems that I may have come full circle to where I should have been anyway.

Hi Johnny,

I have been looking through Shaun's extremely comprehensive answers to try and see if there is anything I can add!

My background; I have a degree in accounting, CIMA Advanced Diploma, over 25 years experience, starting in finance clerk and bookkeeping roles and eventually managing to break into management accounting at a junior level about ten years ago.  I am currently trying to break into entry level supervisor roles at the moment.

I have worked in manufacturing, construction, travel, facilities management, the NHS and social housing and social care charities to mention a few.

Comments I would like to add based on my experience:

Purchase ledger, sales ledger, cashbook, credit control (debtor chasing), payroll and bookkeeper are all potential entry points into management accounting.  Any role that gets you into the business accounting environment is worth pursuing.  Of these I would recommend bookkeeper or purchase ledger as the best options.

I know Shaun mentioned a number of advanced management accounting topics in one of his earlier posts as possibly being necessary knowledge to get into management accounting, but to be honest I have only read about them in text books, I have never been in any situation where I have either seen or heard of them being used.  The point I am trying to make is that the average management accountant in the average medium sized company is generally concerned with overseeing people carrying out the roles I have mentioned above and producing a monthly set of management accounts with a basic budget variance commentary.  There is rarely the opportunity or time to get involved in the more esoteric aspects of management accounting.

In respect of software, Excel is a definite.  Excel knowledge should include functions such as if statements and vlookups and pivot tables.  If there was one piece of accounting software I would advise you to learn, it is Sage.  It is widely used in small and medium sized businesses.

In terms of actually getting a job:

Register with every recruitment agency you can find that deals in accounting recruitment in your area.  Register with any job boards you can find that advertise accounting jobs.  I would recommend the Reed job site, Total Jobs and Indeed.  Indeed is an aggregator that scrapes job listings from various sites as well as containing direct advertisements.  Register with NHS jobs for the NHS.  Local authorities tend not to use agencies or the commercial job boards, so either register with them directly or see if there is a regional public sector job board for your area.  Apply for every single job where you think you might have a chance, also consider applying for jobs which you may feel are slightly outside your reach (this is important to test that you are not underselling yourself).

The best chances of entry level jobs are probably small owner managed companies and small charities.  When I say small, I mean less than £5 million turnover.  Businesses like this tend to have tighter margins and struggle to pay competitive salaries and therefore struggle to recruit.

Having said that, still apply for roles in larger organisations.  There is always that possibility that the right opportunity might come your way.  I know someone who came into the NHS as a temporary purchase ledger clerk, started asking for advice and opportunities to get in management accounting, got into management accounting as a nominal ledger clerk and eventually managed to get into a permanent junior management accounting role.  It does happen.

The only other comments I would make are:

Why try to break into the employment market when you are already established in the self employment market?  Why start all over again?

What was wrong with IT?  A good career could be had.  Not trying to be negative, just trying to make the point that starting in a new market is always going to be harder than developing yourself in your existing market.

Hope that helps.

David.

Hi guys.

Once again, thank you for your responses.

I shall, and will continue to apply for all jobs with either 'ledger' or 'accounts' within the description.

I've managed to pull off an interview at an independent pharmacy company, not a million miles from me.

The CV was more speculative, than direct - so I'm assuming a role akin to ledger support.

I'm hoping that it at least means my CV is too good for immediate despatch to the bin!

The rest is, I guess, down to personality on the day.

It is scheduled for the 2nd of May, so I'll keep you all posted.

In the mean time, I shall continue writing letters, together with CV's - together with trying to find every drop of information I can find, on the pharmacy company.

Happy to just have an interview at this stage. Remembering of course, there will be competition!!

Thanks once again!!

Excellent news Johnny,

good luck with the interview.

I've got a list somewhere of a load of non technical questions. You know the sort, describe an achievement that you are proud of, where do you see yourself in x years, type questions. There are no right answers, just things to ponder.

If you PM me I'll attach it to a reply (assuming that I can find it.... It may not be immediate).