Confused - New to Bookkeeping - IAB IBC AAT? - The Book-keepers Forum (UK)

Lottes · Member

Confused - New to Bookkeeping - IAB IBC AAT?

TrevorD · Senior Member

RE: Confused - New to Bookkeeping - IAB IAC AAT?

Lottes · Member

RE: Confused - New to Bookkeeping - IAB IBC AAT?

111 Bookkeeping and Payroll · Senior Member

ICB and IAB are fine for self employed bookkeeping, but if you are planning on a later career in finance then I would say gain the AAT qualifications, as most employers will recognise AAT but not the other two.

Brian McVean · Senior Member

Hi Lottes,

I would agree with both Trevor and John. The ICB will provide you with specific bookkeeping and payroll qualifications and provide a specific support service for you to branch out on your own as a self employed bookkeeper. They also have self assessment taxation options, allowing you to offer these services to prospective clients. To become self-employed the ICB would require to attain at least Associate membership, which can be obtained by completing their Level II & III exams. If you went as far as you could with ICB amd felt that you wished to continue your study the transition to AAT is straight forward, but ICB will offer you everything you need for self-employment.

Good luck with your search and I hope your change of career is successful.

David Ballantyne · Senior Member

Hello Lottes,

The general guidance provided on this site in respect of IAB ICB and AAT is as follows.

For the purposes of self employment all three qualifications are good qualifications to gain.

The IAB/ICB qualifications are QCF level three qualifications. You are a fully qualified bookkeeper when you complete level three of the qualification. Both qualifications have QCF level four optional qualifications which in effect would qualify you as an accountant for small businesses. Although I have stated that they are both QCF level three qualifications, I believe that the ICB have not sought QCF accreditation. I think that it is generally accepted that IAB/ICB are equivalent qualifications.

The AAT is a QCF level 4 qualification. You become qualified when you have completed the level 4 exams and you have had experience signed off by another accounting professional (although I have read on the AAT forum that experience can be signed off by clients). The full level four AAT qualification qualifies you as an accountant for small businesses.

When I say "small businesses", I mean sole traders, partnerships and small private limited companies.

It has been noted in posts on this forum that if you study AAT to level three, you can gain full membership of IAB and ICB. The advantage of this is that you can obtain a practising certificate from IAB/ICB and are able to promote yourself as a fully qualified bookkeeper to potential clients. I understand that the AAT do not allow their level three qualified student members to promote the fact that they are qualified to that level with AAT to prospective clients.

I believe that IAB/ICB qualifications can get you some exemptions from the AAT qualification. You should confirm this with the AAT.

For employment, the AAT far outstrips the IAB/ICB as a specified qualification requested by employers. Very few employment opportunities specify IAB/ICB as a preferred qualification (it would be incorrect, however, to state that you cannot obtain employment with IAB/ICB).

The Institute of Financial Accountants will consider applications for full membership from AAT members.

The Association of Taxation Technicians will grant substantial exemptions from their qualification for AAT members.

In the longer term, considering your academic capability, you may consider gaining qualification with one of the chartered accountancy bodies. The chartered qualifications are masters degree level.

The chartered accountancy bodies are:

The Institute of Chartered Accountants in England & Wales

The Institute of Chartered Accountants of Scotland

The Association of Chartered Certified Accountants

The Chartered Institute of Management Accountants

The Chartered Institute of Public Finance & Accountancy

I know for certain that each of the chartered bodies will grant exemptions for AAT members. I don't know their policies in respect of IAB/ICB.

Each chartered body has their own particular specialisms and advantages and disadvantages in respect of self-employment and employment, however that is another topic for discussion.

You should confirm everything I have stated with the respective professional body.

Hopefully, Shaun the site moderator and the various professional tutors who post on this forum will also respond to your query as they will be able to provide you with additional perspectives on your options.

Hope that helps,

Kind regards,

David Ballantyne.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi David,

just to confirm your above point, IAB are recognised for QCF where ICB is not. James came on and gave the ICB's reasoning why they have not pursued that which I remember sounding a very reasonable explanation at the time.

To add to the advice in relation to AAT to ICB/IAB. Thats fine provided that you do not move from having passed your AAT exams to MAAT because as soon as you do if you have a practice certificate with anyone else you also have to have one with the AAT.

Now that IFA have joined with the Australian IPA some of the long standing IFA members have left them, some moving to AIA (Association of International Accountants) which is an institute recognised by the FRC where IFA doesn't get a mention in the annual trends in accountancy publication.

I can only speak for the ACCA qualification rather than the others but that one recognises IAB for an entry level exemption from the professional qualification where ICB is currently not recogniised, I believe the difference simply being down to the QCF status rather than content or quality issues (but as you say David, there are other problems associated with self employment and ACCA student membership).

That said, if one's intention was to go down that path then I feel that any bookkeeping only qualification (IAB/ICB/Open University/Pitmans/City & Guild/etc.) that comes before should be ignored otherwise you lose too much of the entry level knowledge and slow down your progress rather with subsequent failures than speed it up with exemptions (AAT or CAT/FIA would be fine to take the exemptions offered).

In the case of the poster considering the background and keeping the option of employment open personally I would suggest AAT as the best option as, as you say David, ICB and IAB are not recognised by employers (or agents).

If one's intention is to return to work then when taking qualifications always consider how the inclusion of that qualification on your CV looks to potential employers. What does it say about you?

AAT is the qualification that many Chartered Accountants started with and as such it tends to be the minimum that they look for in someone that they are taking on.

By the time your little one's go to primary you would be fully qualified, possibly with a few small businesses that you have been looking after (under HMRC MLR supervision) and ready to find employment with the right qualification for both small practices and the accounts departments of smaller businesses.

If your intention is only to offer services on a self employed basis then IAB or ICB is fine but bare in mind that you may limit your options later.

That said of course there is no guarantee of employment no matter what your qualification as this is a very competetive professon with a lot of people in it so it would help from the outset to know your target market rather than simply getting trained and assuming that the business will come.

Basically, treat it like a business from the outset. Find a market, preferably find a niche, even better find relatives and friends as your first clients, and then train to service that market using the training time to also prepare your business for launch.

And also consider your long term goal. If that includes the possible option of employment and a move up into accountancy then consider carefully Davids advice in relation to AAT over the bookkeeping qualifications.

Whichever option you go with I wish you the very best of luck,

kindest regards,

Shaun.

Lottes · Member

Thank you very much for your replies all.

Looks like AAT is the way forward for me in the long run.

Does anyone have any recommendations for best distance learning providers? I'm hoping to plough through it quickly. (I've only done a v small amount of bookkeeping - nothing proper- so do I have to start at Level 1 or can I use my intelligence (it's in there somewhere....) to start at Level 2?

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Lottes,

Premier training are good, also take a look at first Intuition.

If you contact either of them with Premier ask to speak with Neil Concannan, and with First Tuition ask to speak to Nick Craggs. Nicks MAAT and a chartered accountant, Neils MAAT, so in both instances these are people that have done it and know their stuff and could help you to get started on your journey.

kindest regards,

Shaun.

Lottes · Member

Thank you Shamus!

Could I bend your ear for one more thing?

Do you think being AAT (Level 3) qualified for Bookkeeping and not being able to advertise "Fully Qualified" would hinder me in gaining clients whilst self-employed?

(Likely to be self-employed for next 5-7 years)

Brian McVean · Senior Member

Shamus wrote:
Hi Lottes,

Premier training are good, also take a look at first Intuition.

If you contact either of them with Premier ask to speak with Neil Concannan, and with First Tuition ask to speak to Nick Craggs. Nicks MAAT and a chartered accountant, Neils MAAT, so in both instances these are people that have done it and know their stuff and could help you to get started on your journey.

kindest regards,

Shaun.

Ahem, Shaun, can we be added to that list too

Lottes, it's good that the advice provided has been of help to you. earlier I mentioned ICB mainly down to the self-employment route, but also because you indicated that payroll would be something that you'd also be thinking about.

Good luck with everything!!

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

No.

you will quickly find that clients have no perception at all as to what the various qualifications mean and they assume that if you offer your services as a bookkeeper or accountant then you are able to do the job.

Puting your degree letters after your name on your business cards will indicate to clients that you have something.

If you get work through accountancy practices you can tell them (even though you cannot advertiser the fact) that you are working towards the AAT qualification, it's only the general public that you cannot let on that you have any link to AAT.

HTH,

Shaun.

Lottes · Member

Thank you Shaun <3

This forum has restored my faith in the internet! There are helpful, lovely people here!

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Brian,

my apologies. You've not really been pushing AAT on here much.

There are lots of AAT training companies that I didn't mention, I only put forwards the two that I did as I know that their trainers are MAAT qualified (and in Nicks case also ICAEW). Also, Premier are generally all over PQ magazine every month in relation to AAT training but of course many of the cover articles that I'm remembering relate back to when Nick was still with Premier.

Actually, I should also have mentioned Sonya at Eagle Education. Also an MAAT.

kindest regards,

Shaun.

p.s. isn't Payroll covered in the AAT personal Tax module?

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Hi Lottes
I agree with John, David and Shaun especially given your qualifications to date....AAT is probably your best option for both routes you are considering. AAT do a skills test, have a look at. www.aatskillcheck.org/home.aspx. Gives you an indication of what level to start with.
Welcome to the site.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Thanks Lottes, we try our hardest. :)

Brian McVean · Senior Member

Hi Shaun,

Sorry, I only said that tongue in cheek. Ive not really been pushing anything on here of late due to being exceptionally busy in my proper job.

There are many on here that do the AAT plugging so much of the time there is no point in repeating. Fewer point out the merits of the ICB and thats where Ill generally get involved. In Lottes case, especially now there is a 5-7 year time span for self-employment, I do believe the ICB is the best option; getting qualified and being able to use the certified bookkeeping qualification in helping to attract clients. Later, if there is a desire for further study, the transition to AAT and beyond is a simple one.

Re the payroll/personal tax point, I do not believe there is sufficient coverage to offer payroll to potential clients. There is certainly no computerisation.

I bid you all a good night and Im sure well be chatting again soon.

-- Edited by Brian McVean on Sunday 8th of February 2015 11:38:10 PM

TrevorD · Senior Member

Good Morning Brian

I am going to the ICB branch meeting in Cardiff on Wednesday - Garry Carter is giving an update on ICB news, ICB future plans and a industry update (also taking questions). Hopefully, he will have something regarding raising the ICBs profile with employers.

Will let you all know if anything interesting is discussed.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Its not just employers that they need to target, it's agents.

Telling employers how wonderful ICB people are is no good if every CV that mentions ICB is filtered out before it ever gets to them.

Brian McVean · Senior Member

Thanks for that, Trevor. I know they were in discussions with a major recruitment agency so hopefully there is some news there. Enjoy the meet biggrin

DaveCampbell · Senior Member

Brian McVean wrote:
Thanks for that, Trevor. I know they were in discussions with a major recruitment agency so hopefully there is some news there. Enjoy the meet

Hi Brian, long time no speak and I trust you are well? Just out of interest and my own curiosity how much would it cost for AAT Level 2 distance learning training including all exam fees? There is a reason I am asking which I will share with you upon your response.

Dave

Brian McVean · Senior Member

Howdy Dave,

I'm good thanks. Hope you own recuperation is going well. For the AAT Level 2 Certificate (5 units) including AAT Registration & exam fees you'd be looking at around £900-£950, depending on the exam centre costs.

DaveCampbell · Senior Member

Hi Brian

Not too bad on the old getting back on my feet front, its not the type of operation for people in our profession as exercise is very important and if I am not working I am sleeping, Still I can run a Marathon in 1 hour 58 mins while I am asleep lol.

As you know Brian I know nothing about AAT and correct me if I am wrong but do you not have to gain some experience before being allowed a practice licence?

If people are looking to be a self employed Bookkeeper then why even look at AAT initially? If a student becomes ICB qualified at Level 4 which including exams costs around 1.4 k (average fee including exams) where they (the student) can practice and earn money once at ICB Level 3 (earn while they learn)

My point is again tell me if I am wrong, if it is going to cost the best part of 1k to get AAT Level 2 then why not study ICB to Level 4 and look at AAT as CPD? As I understand it with AAT they leave it to the Training Provider as to which level a student goes in at based on other gained qualifications?

I do remember Nick telling me some providers will even let you go straight in at AAT Level 4 with an ICB Level 4 qualification but advised me Level 3 would be the better option.

So would it not be more prudent and cost effective for students to do ICB first? What are your thoughts on this and am I wrong?

Look forward to hearing from you.

Dave

TrevorD · Senior Member

Another point of comparison - To become an Associate of the ICB (ie self employed bookkeeper and undertake accounts for sole traders, partnerships and not for profit orgs) you take six home based assessments and only one centre based exam at a Pearson Vue centre. I get the impression that IAB & AAT courses / qualifications are really designed to be taken at a college (ie do a course examiners turn-up at the end and you do an exam). I know you can book the exams at external test centres but I get the impression its a bit of a palaver and expensive. This may not be so convenient to someone living in the sticks or has home commitments. Brian may help on this, but to get AAT level 2 & 3 it may be 14 external exams !!!

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Dave,

Because until you move up to MAAT you are allowed to practice offering limited services as a student.

If on completing the exams you move up to MAAT you can no longer offer the same services until you gain MIP status.

Pre MIP you must get your MLR cover through HMRC.

Its difficult to compare the prices of various training providers for AAT as some include exam fee's and memberships where others do not and those fee's need to be added to compare directly.

If you want to be an accountant then AAT would gain you exemptions from the first few papers where ICB would not gain any exemptions and IAB gains one exemption.

For AAT, if we're talking cost effectiveness then someone could either self study or do the Open University introduction to bookkeeping course (around £440 which includes access to a tutor throughout the course which also covers Sage instant), then do AAT units 1-4 revision book (about £15 or less) and then do the AAT skills test suggested by Jo above which will see you start studies at level III saving a fair chunk of money by skipping level II before starting training properly at AAT level III.

On your note about is people are looking for a bookkeeper why look at AAT. Could you not also argue if people are looking for a bookkeeper why look at ICB, or IAB, or any other bookkeeping qualification specifically as bookkeeping is merely a more limited subset of accountancy.

If someone's aim is to move to accountancy or employment in this industry then why not invest immediately in where you want to end up rather than taking a detour to get to where you want to be?

ICB is a good quality bookkeeping qualification which as you note is a good start point for those looking to become self employed without the wish to keep the door to employment ajar. They have good networking and try to improve the public perception of bookkeeping as a seperate profession.

It could be argued that they have no idea where bookkeeping stops and accountancy begins but thats an argument for another thread (it's at the trial balance by the way).

The key with all posters on here is to attempt to guage what their end goal is and in Lottes case I was reading that as a qualification as a temporary fix before moving back to employment when her young one is at school rather than reading this as a desire to be a work from home bookkeeper forever.

AAT will give her all the training that she needs to work as a self employed bookkeeper and also be a stepping stone into practice at a later date when she comes to them with a qualification that they understand and exchanges her stable of clients for a full time job.

I could be wrong but I seem to remember Nick mentioning people being allowed by certain training providers to start at AAT level 4 but was that not people who for one reason or another had not completed higher accountancy qualifications so were downsizing to AAT rather than being allowed to start ahead of themselves.

I believe that training companies need to be careful about letting people get too far ahead of themselves with AAT or risk falling from favour which is why you will see gfor the most part people only being allowed to skip level II unless they come to the table with a serious part qualification and/ or experience.

kind regards,

Shaun.

Brian McVean · Senior Member

Good to hear youre on the mend. This is one of those rare occasions when Im in complete agreement with you, Dave.another for the scrapbook smile . To me is fairly simple:

1. If you harbour ambitions of being self-employed as a bookkeeper, then get qualified with a body that is 100% dedicated to helping you achieve this, by way of support and specific coverage of qualification. In my mind the ICB cannot be beaten in this respect. Once qualified, if you have a change of mind career-wise, then the transition to AAT is straight forward. Ive known of a number of students that have went straight to AAT Level 4, but they perhaps had other experience behind them. Level 3 is the most likely entry level with the first two exams covering part of ICB Level III.

2. If seeking employment within an accounting environment, then go for AAT as this does flag up on more agency searches. I should also state here that there are many that become part-qualified with AAT and then take the jump to ICB to take advantage of the benefits they supply for self-employment.

As I understand it you cannot practice under the umbrella of the AAT (using logos, etc) until you are MAAT and have experience behind you. However, as you are getting qualified you can if you wish obtain MLR supervision via HMRC and go on your own as a bookkeeper. However, the fact that you cannot at this stage have any mention of AAT on business cards, websites, etc, I dont really see the point in this.

I know there are some (or many) that dont agree with this assessment but thats my take on it.

DaveCampbell · Senior Member

Hi Shaun

I think all bodies can offer something but that was not my point and neither was self study students as regardless of body this is going to be a hell of a lot cheaper than using a Training Provider.

I am only referring to those looking at Self-Employment and not those looking at being employed or being an accountant. This is not a debate on who is the best, EG ICB, IAB or AAT

I know we had a Level 4 (MICB Member) who was given exemption to Level 4 AAT.

If AAT tell their students they cannot get a practice licence without gaining experience what happens when someone from ICB who is already in practice decides to join AAT? Sorry for my impertinence but I would like to know the full ins and outs.

Those wishing to use a Training Provider to include all exam fees then for me as a layperson would be looking at how to make my money work for me and as such if I want to be a self employed Bookkeeper then would not ICB be more cost effective for that said student to reach their initial goal.

If I was looking to be a Bookkeeper then I would be looking at the organisation first and can they give me what I am looking for once qualified. How many people sign up with ACCA and have no idea about regulation 8?

My post on this thread also had nothing to do with the initial question but just wanted to know how much on average does AAT Level 2 cost a student (using a training provider) including all membership and exam fees.

Why pay £1k plus for a level 2 qualification when you can gain full membership with another awarding body for slightly more? I am still to be convinced?

Dave

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Brian McVean wrote:
1. If you harbour ambitions of being self-employed as a bookkeeper, then get qualified with a body that is 100% dedicated to helping you achieve this, by way of support and specific coverage of qualification. In my mind the ICB cannot be beaten in this respect. Once qualified, if you have a change of mind career-wise, then the transition to AAT is straight forward. Ive known of a number of students that have went straight to AAT Level 4, but they perhaps had other experience behind them. Level 3 is the most likely entry level with the first two exams covering part of ICB Level III.
2. If seeking employment within an accounting environment, then go for AAT as this does flag up on more agency searches. I should also state here that there are many that become part-qualified with AAT and then take the jump to ICB to take advantage of the benefits they supply for self-employment.

As I understand it you cannot practice under the umbrella of the AAT (using logos, etc) until you are MAAT and have experience behind you. However, as you are getting qualified you can if you wish obtain MLR supervision via HMRC and go on your own as a bookkeeper. However, the fact that you cannot at this stage have any mention of AAT on business cards, websites, etc, I dont really see the point in this.

I know there are some (or many) that dont agree with this assessment but thats my take on it.

Surely if you are considering being a bookkeeper who ALSO has ambitions to work within an accounting environment then you should be looking to do the learning that gets you where you ultimately wish to be - therefore the AAT. Plus am I being a bit odd in thinking this isnt about what you can put on websites and businesscards but about what tools you need to learn to do the job and to do it WELL. Never mind about the additional cost by going the ICB then AAT route. Lets face it if you start down the ICB route and then dont get the clients to make the job pay then the option to work within the accounting environment has been closed to you. If you know you definately would never work in an accounting environment then fine - chose ICB or IAB, but that wasnt the question that was asked by Lottes!

The biggest issue I have with all of this is that people think they can offer a service when they are clearly not capable - just because they have passed exams doesnt make you capable. The most worrying of those are the ones who are allowed by their association to produce 'past the Trial Balance' stage when frankly a fair percentage of them just shouldnt (a sweeping statement I know and I dont mean it of all of them, but Ive seen a few who really shouldnt be let lose after a certain point! Ive had to clear up the mess! )

Lottes · Member

Thank you Joanne!

This thread has been a roller coaster of going from confused, to knowing that to do, to confused again!

I was certain AAT after initial posts, then I was wavering and thinking maybe ICB is best. You've cleared it up for me and I'll stick with AAT. Ideally I would like to be self employed and stay at home with my daughter. But then if money/circumstances dictate I need to return to work then AAT has the best chance of equipping me for that.

I can see I opened a whole can of worms with this thread ;)

DaveCampbell · Senior Member

Brian McVean wrote:
Good to hear youre on the mend. This is one of those rare occasions when Im in complete agreement with you, Dave.another for the scrapbook . To me is fairly simple:
1. If you harbour ambitions of being self-employed as a bookkeeper, then get qualified with a body that is 100% dedicated to helping you achieve this, by way of support and specific coverage of qualification. In my mind the ICB cannot be beaten in this respect. Once qualified, if you have a change of mind career-wise, then the transition to AAT is straight forward. Ive known of a number of students that have went straight to AAT Level 4, but they perhaps had other experience behind them. Level 3 is the most likely entry level with the first two exams covering part of ICB Level III.
2. If seeking employment within an accounting environment, then go for AAT as this does flag up on more agency searches. I should also state here that there are many that become part-qualified with AAT and then take the jump to ICB to take advantage of the benefits they supply for self-employment.

As I understand it you cannot practice under the umbrella of the AAT (using logos, etc) until you are MAAT and have experience behind you. However, as you are getting qualified you can if you wish obtain MLR supervision via HMRC and go on your own as a bookkeeper. However, the fact that you cannot at this stage have any mention of AAT on business cards, websites, etc, I dont really see the point in this.

I know there are some (or many) that dont agree with this assessment but thats my take on it.

Lol Brian that is the 3rd time we have agreed with each other, we will be sending each other Christmas Cards if this keeps happening lol. Anything to do with AAT I would normally PM and ask Nick or Neil but thought this would be an interesting debate and you have explained it in a far better way than I could have so thank you for that.

I over the years have told quite a few callers that I thought AAT would be a better option for them based on what their end goal was and never gave costings a thought (Nick can verify this)

Of course there is the argument that the ICB qualification is relatively cheap in comparison to the other awarding bodies. There is another point I want to ask but will do it privately

Thank you for the clarification

Dave

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Hi Lottes
Yes - see what you have done, lol. Its a debate that has raged several times on here - you can do a search and see the same (ish) comments, apart from the situation with the IFA which has recently changed as Shmus mentions.

You are clearly a clever lady so I would say also to go for the more challenging learning as otherwise you might get bored. My son is in the same position with a Chemistry/Forensics background and is looking at going down the AAT or ACCA route (likely the latter).

Good luck with whatever you decide is right for you.

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Dave Campbell wrote:
Lol Brian that is the 3rd time we have agreed with each other, we will be sending each other Christmas Cards if this keeps happening lol. Anything to do with AAT I would normally PM and ask Nick or Neil but thought this would be an interesting debate and you have explained it in a far better way than I could have so thank you for that.
I over the years have told quite a few callers that I thought AAT would be a better option for them based on what their end goal was and never gave costings a thought (Nick can verify this)
Of course there is the argument that the ICB qualification is relatively cheap in comparison to the other awarding bodies. There is another point I want to ask but will do it privately
Thank you for the clarification
Dave

Dave - are you thinking of doing some additional training / exams, going for a career change? Thought you wouldve been off for life by us daft lot!

Brian McVean · Senior Member

Cheshire wrote:

Surely if you are considering being a bookkeeper who ALSO has ambitions to work within an accounting environment then you should be looking to do the learning that gets you where you ultimately wish to be - therefore the AAT. Plus am I being a bit odd in thinking this isnt about what you can put on websites and businesscards but about what tools you need to learn to do the job and to do it WELL. Never mind about the additional cost by going the ICB then AAT route. Lets face it if you start down the ICB route and then dont get the clients to make the job pay then the option to work within the accounting environment has been closed to you. If you know you definately would never work in an accounting environment then fine - chose ICB or IAB, but that wasnt the question that was asked by Lottes!
The biggest issue I have with all of this is that people think they can offer a service when they are clearly not capable - just because they have passed exams doesnt make you capable. The most worrying of those are the ones who are allowed by their association to produce 'past the Trial Balance' stage when frankly a fair percentage of them just shouldnt (a sweeping statement I know and I dont mean it of all of them, but Ive seen a few who really shouldnt be let lose after a certain point! Ive had to clear up the mess! )

Hi Joanne,

My earlier posts here were aimed specifically at Lottes where there is an expected self-employment range of 5-7 years. Why not get certified bookkeepers status (achievable within a year) and use the advertising possibilities that go along with it. If you need work done on your heating and you look in your local paper for an engineer. You see one that's CORGI and one that has no mention of accreditation. I know what one i'd choose!! In terms of moving from one qualification to the other, this is something that many, many students do....in both directions. It may not have been the route that you chose, but it's a very viable option and needn't cost an arm and a leg and you get the best of both worlds.

In a recent post on here I replied to someone that was being offered a practice license with IAB based on having an ICB Level I Manual & Level II Computerised bookkeeping qualification. They are asking for trouble with this one and I would never condone anyone practicing with this level of qualification. Those now qualifying to ICB level III have a greater appreciation of the completion of accounts for sole traders, partnerships and not for profits, particularly in a computerised sense, than those qualified to AAT Level 3. Those in practice to that level and beyond do a fantastic job for their clients...fact!! I'm sure there are some bad apples, but that's the case covering all qualifications and professions.

Anyway, I'm off home now, have a good night everyone smile

DaveCampbell · Senior Member

Cheshire wrote:
Brian McVean wrote:
1. If you harbour ambitions of being self-employed as a bookkeeper, then get qualified with a body that is 100% dedicated to helping you achieve this, by way of support and specific coverage of qualification. In my mind the ICB cannot be beaten in this respect. Once qualified, if you have a change of mind career-wise, then the transition to AAT is straight forward. Ive known of a number of students that have went straight to AAT Level 4, but they perhaps had other experience behind them. Level 3 is the most likely entry level with the first two exams covering part of ICB Level III.
2. If seeking employment within an accounting environment, then go for AAT as this does flag up on more agency searches. I should also state here that there are many that become part-qualified with AAT and then take the jump to ICB to take advantage of the benefits they supply for self-employment.

As I understand it you cannot practice under the umbrella of the AAT (using logos, etc) until you are MAAT and have experience behind you. However, as you are getting qualified you can if you wish obtain MLR supervision via HMRC and go on your own as a bookkeeper. However, the fact that you cannot at this stage have any mention of AAT on business cards, websites, etc, I dont really see the point in this.

I know there are some (or many) that dont agree with this assessment but thats my take on it.

Surely if you are considering being a bookkeeper who ALSO has ambitions to work within an accounting environment then you should be looking to do the learning that gets you where you ultimately wish to be - therefore the AAT. Plus am I being a bit odd in thinking this isnt about what you can put on websites and businesscards but about what tools you need to learn to do the job and to do it WELL. Never mind about the additional cost by going the ICB then AAT route. Lets face it if you start down the ICB route and then dont get the clients to make the job pay then the option to work within the accounting environment has been closed to you. If you know you definately would never work in an accounting environment then fine - chose ICB or IAB, but that wasnt the question that was asked by Lottes!
The biggest issue I have with all of this is that people think they can offer a service when they are clearly not capable - just because they have passed exams doesnt make you capable. The most worrying of those are the ones who are allowed by their association to produce 'past the Trial Balance' stage when frankly a fair percentage of them just shouldnt (a sweeping statement I know and I dont mean it of all of them, but Ive seen a few who really shouldnt be let lose after a certain point! Ive had to clear up the mess! )

Hi Joanne

You are spot on regarding those who have passed a few qualifications and think they can do the job (some can some cant) but this can be said in every profession and is not just a Bookkeeping/Accounting thing. Point is if they cant do the job they soon get found out which means more work for those that can.

Getting clients I should imagine is harder than getting the qualifications and I have said this before and I will say it again, those who do well are the ones who get themselves out there to make things happen. I will give you an example.

I had a call 5 months ago from a young lady who had been on our website and noted that we won Training Provider of the Year award and Student of the Year award, she asked me what she would have to do to be considered to be nominated for the student award? I told her and 5 months on she has passed with 90% Plus pass marks in the following exams. B1 B2 B3 BA4 BA5 BA6 BA7 And Payroll Management, she applied for a practice licence, set up a website and already has several clients. She did this by getting out the yellow pages and calling local business where she has arranged 20 meetings, she also called local accountants who are showing an interest in using her services. Now as you say she may turn out to not be the best Bookkeeper in the world but this was not my point.

Right off for a massage from an ex school cook, she has no idea what she is doing and uses cooking oil instead of baby oil but that don't matter as she passed her masseuse exam and shes cheap lol xx

Dave

-- Edited by Dave Campbell on Monday 9th of February 2015 07:35:00 PM

DaveCampbell · Senior Member

Cheshire wrote:
Dave Campbell wrote:
Lol Brian that is the 3rd time we have agreed with each other, we will be sending each other Christmas Cards if this keeps happening lol. Anything to do with AAT I would normally PM and ask Nick or Neil but thought this would be an interesting debate and you have explained it in a far better way than I could have so thank you for that.
I over the years have told quite a few callers that I thought AAT would be a better option for them based on what their end goal was and never gave costings a thought (Nick can verify this)
Of course there is the argument that the ICB qualification is relatively cheap in comparison to the other awarding bodies. There is another point I want to ask but will do it privately
Thank you for the clarification
Dave

Dave - are you thinking of doing some additional training / exams, going for a career change? Thought you wouldve been off for life by us daft lot!

Lol Jo, no chance not until I have given you them chocs biggrin biggrin biggrin

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

As an aside Im interested to know how many people who have completed self assessments have actually produced a set of accounts for sole traders and partnerships because I dont see many. Was going to post as a separate question last week then got far too busy!

Interestingly none of my clients have ever asked me about accreditation! Scarily! ICB/IAB etc dont map across to the legally required (former) CORGI, which interestingly has been replaced by the Gas Safe Register so anyone stating they are CORGI registered probably shouldnt be doing the work!

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Dave Campbell wrote:
Right off for a massage from an ex school cook, she has no idea what she is doing and uses cooking oil instead of baby oil but that don't matter as she passed her masseuse exam and shes cheap lol xx
Dave

lol Dave. biggrin

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Dave Campbell wrote:
Lol Jo, no chance not until I have given you them chocs

Ive been waiting about 14 months!!! Although dont reckon my boyfriend would too impressed if you now started scaling the walls of my house with the milk tray! Thats his job now and he knows I like Thorntons continentals!

Brian McVean · Senior Member

There you go, that's my something new learned today.

DaveCampbell · Senior Member

Cheshire wrote:
As an aside Im interested to know how many people who have completed self assessments have actually produced a set of accounts for sole traders and partnerships because I dont see many. Was going to post as a separate question last week then got far too busy!

Interestingly none of my clients have ever asked me about accreditation! Scarily! ICB/IAB etc dont map across to the legally required (former) CORGI, which interestingly has been replaced by the Gas Safe Register so anyone stating they are CORGI registered probably shouldnt be doing the work!

Hi Jo that is a good point and question and like you said probably best on a new thread as I think you would get more responses.

Dave

DaveCampbell · Senior Member

Cheshire wrote:
Dave Campbell wrote:
Right off for a massage from an ex school cook, she has no idea what she is doing and uses cooking oil instead of baby oil but that don't matter as she passed her masseuse exam and shes cheap lol xx
Dave
lol Dave.

Yes I was laughing as I typed it, thank heavens for humour

Dave

DaveCampbell · Senior Member

Cheshire wrote:
Dave Campbell wrote:
Lol Jo, no chance not until I have given you them chocs
Ive been waiting about 14 months!!! Although dont reckon my boyfriend would too impressed if you now started scaling the walls of my house with the milk tray! Thats his job now and he knows I like Thorntons continentals!

Lol Oh Jo you missed a trick then as I was going to deliver them on Valentines day, just waiting for the black suit to come from the dry cleaners, now as I would have to deliver the milk tray without being seen your boyfriend would have pretended they were off him but he got you an extra box of Thorntons as well Some people just don't know there born biggrin biggrin biggrin

Right time to get off this damned computer, have a good evening all

Dave

matt123 · Senior Member

I agree with what Joanne said. How people can practice after a year doing a home course is crazy! It certainly takes the prestige off a qualification. If we are comparing to the plumbing trade, I wouldn't let a plumber who has done 1 years worth of learning anywhere near my boiler ð

matt123 · Senior Member

Oh and I wasn't calling anyone a div. It's meant to be a smiley. Bloody phone!

Brian McVean · Senior Member

Hi Matt,

I know where you are coming from and I share your concerns as I highlighted with the example of the IAB policy. I think this is a bad move by them. However, if students are trained properly and use the support services available to them, then they can go out and do a good job. This is somthing I've seen countless times.

Earlier in this thread it was suggested that Lottes starts practicing while getting AAT qualified, bearing in mind she would have no support from her professional body, and not an eyelid was batted. When it's suggested that someone do the same using the ICB qualification it seems a bad thing, I really don't see the difference here confuse

-- Edited by Brian McVean on Tuesday 10th of February 2015 12:48:26 AM

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Hi Brian
There is a clear and present danger (sorry watching too much telly tonight) ...I mean difference between producing up to Trial Balance and beyond. It's the beyond one that concerns as neither Acca nor AAT can do this (unless I've lost the plot) yet ICB can. So the higher the qualification the less you can do. Up to trial balance is ok, as then someone more suitably qualified can finalise the accounts and can sort out any appropriate adjustments including tax issues. Support services are no substitute for proper knowledge when it comes to completing the actual accounts of limited companies as evidenced by some of the levels of queries seen on here, and other forums. On the basis that someone can be ACCA qualified but still cannot practices on their own without going through a lengthy supervision period is surely testament to the fact that such work is complex and not to be completed when someone doesn't know what they are really doing, so how can they at the level of ICB.

Don't get me wrong I'm not denegrating what ICB does, rather questioning the ethics of it. I have no doubt the are some great bookkeepers out there who are members just as there actually are who aren't members of any associations. My point is....(1)no-one should be providing a service which they are not capable of, even if the association says they can.(2) why is it ICB think they can allows members to progress matters so far in a highly complex area when other associations forbid it. I think this is the point where Matt agrees.

-- Edited by Cheshire on Monday 9th of February 2015 11:18:49 PM

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

matt123 wrote:
I agree with what Joanne said. How people can practice after a year doing a home course is crazy! It certainly takes the prestige off a qualification. If we are comparing to the plumbing trade, I wouldn't let a plumber who has done 1 years worth of learning anywhere near my boiler ð

Thanks Matt. Just not comparing eggs with eggs, although joe public doesn't realise that!!

111 Bookkeeping and Payroll · Senior Member

Cheshire wrote:
As an aside Im interested to know how many people who have completed self assessments have actually produced a set of accounts for sole traders and partnerships because I dont see many. Was going to post as a separate question last week then got far too busy!

Interestingly none of my clients have ever asked me about accreditation! Scarily! ICB/IAB etc dont map across to the legally required (former) CORGI, which interestingly has been replaced by the Gas Safe Register so anyone stating they are CORGI registered probably shouldnt be doing the work!

Hi Jo. Re Corgi and Gas Safe. You took the words right out of my mouth. A friend of mine has just done 2 years at college doing a heating course and has just received his gas safe accreditation. You can't legally do any heating work without it. However, I think the comparison with a bookkeeper is a silly one, because there is nowhere near the amount of skill needed.

Regarding the first question, what's a set of accounts? biggrin

Brian McVean · Senior Member

I'm getting it in the neck re my CORGI gaff....I love it smile smile . Anyway, regardless of my comparison, my point is that when seeking out any professional or tradesman, online or otherwise, the one that shows proof of accreditation is more likely to receive a greater number of responses.

Bookkeeping is now seen as a respected profession and the ICB has played a major part in that. At the same time the provision of training available to students has improved beyond belief, so people are coming out the other end more knowledgable and confident than ever before. The ICB allow them to practice once properly qualified and provide support sercives via member to member mentoring, regional branches and direct support. Completion of final accounts is covered & tested extensively and those that have the confidence can offer these services. Others realise their limitations and don't bother, but the choice is there.

Both AAT and ICB are first class organisations and, in the main, people attach themselves to either qualification for differing reasons. If anyone is considering a career in bookkeeping and finance you have either of these and more to look after your best interests.

I think I've made my point and bid you all a productive day smile smile smile smile

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi John,

I think that our skillset is somewhat different to a gas fitters but it is still a complex skillset.

The Corgi/Gas safe one may have been a poorly chosen example but I see what Brian was attempting to convey. Maybe a better analogy would have been cosmetic surgery where there is a similar mix of people who have qualified as doctors and people who have done a few weeks course (or even no course at all) performing the same role of administering botox injections.

Much of the time everything is fine but when it's not would the person rather be in the hands of a doctor or someone who has bought the cheapest course in order to start a business?

Actually, the Royal college of Surgeons is attempting to outlaw non medical trained staff giving botox the same as the accounting bodies continue to attempt to prevent non accountants from working past trial balance. However, there is a European directive that prevenets such protection of the accountancy profession in this country even though in most of the rest of Europe there is clear demarkation.

Whilst the bookkeeping bodies are protected by European legislation I fear that there is nothing that can legally be done to prevent them although does the more recent adoption of ethical and moral codes by the ICB mean that they will be self imposing restrictions on practice... I think not as in general micro busnesses which are our main client base expect a one stop shop rather than going to one financial professional to do the bookkeeping and another to do the accountancy.

If bookkeeepers were only selling bookkeeping services I feel that many (but certainly not all) small practices would fold as they are dependant upon appearing to clients as a one stop accounts / self assessment solution in order to win business.

So, the question now is that as the ICB qualification at level IV is aimed at accountancy rather than bookkeeping is it time for ICB to drop the pretence of being a bookkeeping qualification? Where the reality is that bookkeeping is NOT a seperate business at all but rather simply a subset of accountancy.

And if they do that then perhaps also time to start applying the same sort of rules, experience requirements and time to market as bodies further up the food chain... But if they did, why would you choose ICB over, say, AAT if they took the same time and experience requirement to achieve?

Just my views and I hope that comes accross as a balanced discussion as I am not anti ICB but I am anti ICB not being what it says on the tin.

Either drop the accountancy from the syllabus and services that can be offered (which would badly effect ability to gain clients) or admit that you are offering accountancy services and suffer the increased study, cost and experience requirements.