Very indecisive!! Help required! - The Book-keepers Forum (UK)

benp1987 · Member

Very indecisive!! Help required!

matt123 · Senior Member

Brian McVean wrote:

The fact that you dont want to give up your current job kind of rules out AAT as to practice as a bookkeeper under them, you need to first gain a certain level of experience. This would only be a suitable route if you had ambitions to study further to accounting qualifications, which youve indicated is not the case.

Not necessarily. I am doing AAT alongside my current job and obtained a practice licence via exemptions for a licence and membership with the IAB so I can offer bookkeeping and will still have the AAT qualification at the end for the CV and a few exemptions for the chartered bodies if I wanted to take it further.

-- Edited by matt123 on Thursday 21st of November 2013 05:18:44 PM

-- Edited by matt123 on Thursday 21st of November 2013 05:19:08 PM

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

ChrisA wrote:
Hi
ICB website links:
http://www.bookkeepers.org.uk/Membership/Join-by-Examination gives details of the different levels
The old website, or at least some of it is still at old.bookkeepers.org.uk

Cheers Chris.

had to grab it quick as the page with the big arrow on it showing membership levels disappears after a second. Its the FICB where you need experience, thats what I was trying to remember.

The link that you gave was where I started but there are 404's off that page.

many thanks,

Shaun.

-- Edited by Shamus on Thursday 21st of November 2013 05:44:26 PM

benp1987 · Member

Good afternoon all.

First post so be gentle!!

I'll start from the top! I'm currently a sales manager at a plumbers merchant, happy enough, private health care, pension, 30k+ a year. I'm looking to add a few strings to my bow in terms of a book keeping / accountancy course. Now this will be completely free lance like an out of hours secondary income venture, nothing to do with my existing job.

Now what got me interested in this was mainly the fact that my father owns his own business which consists of 2 bakeries, he has a book-keeper working approximately 2-3 hours a fortnight and an accountant handling his payroll and the rest of this finances. Now the plan would be to take over the roll of both these parties and handle everything myself in house.

I've been doing a hell of a lot of research in regards to the ICB, IAB, and AAT organisations and have changed my mind several times on the matter. Now given that I'm already on a pretty decent set up in my current job I don't think I'd like to really go down the route of training to be an accountant as my main source of income, looking at the current salaries for AAT qualified people I won't be gaining much if any from my current wage, unless I carried on to ACCA of course but to be honest I really don't think I've got that amount of studying in me. lol.

Now I'm pretty sure that with the right courses through the ICB or IAB I'd be able to undertake all aspects of financial work from the bakeries on, although I'd have to get my final accounts signed off by an actual accountant?? One of the bakeries is classed as a sole trader the other limited I better add. I believe it's the limited company that needs signing off?

Now for the questions!!

I'm guessing to be able to handle all aspects of work I'd need to take a level at AAT? Does anybody know which one this might be? And do I have to be working as an accountant to obtain this?

Now I'm thinking to be able to do the rest of the work I'd be beneficial to take levels 1, 2 3, as well as a payroll course from the ICB or IAB?

I'm currently swinging in favour of the ICB to get working quicker, although I do like the sound of the IAB being more recognised and also benefitting me more if I ever wanted to more forward with AAT.

Please anybody correct me if anything I've said is incorrect! All advice and comments are appreciated.

Heads pickled. lol. confuse

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

From the sound of it your aim is to look after the books of the family business, not really to offer services to the general public.

ACCA regulation 8 would not affect you and nor would MLR or practicing certificate requirements. Your only (! lol) concern is getting the knowledge base.

If conversely you were to offer your services to the general public then thats a different kettle of fish.

There is no need to do anything else and then move to ACCA. You just start with ACCA at paper F1 and go from there.

If you get through all of the exams which will take 5+ years you could then decide whether this was the acreer for you at which time use your ACCA status to transfer to a different qualification such as IFA or AAT.

You will need signed off experience with any professional body which may pose problems for you, but the immediate issue of the families books and thinking that ACCA is a distant aspiration are more easily resolved.

Make no mistake, ACCA is hard, damned hard. Only a tiny fraction of those who start on that path actually finish it but, if you've got what it takes then there is no reason that you could not achieve it.

Conversely you could go the AAT route which will give you a great basis in the profession but after completing it the qualification will only exempt you from the first three ACCA papers (which you still have to pay for as ACCA exemptions come in the form of guaranteed passes (like the ICB's)).

Another good thing about ACCA is that you can self teach from study texts (I prefer the Kaplan ones), plus there is loads of free stuff such as the Open tuition online lectures and all of the old ACCA exams are available to download free from the ACCA website.

Just a few suggestions,

kind regards,

Shaun.

Brian McVean · Senior Member

Hi Ben,

You seem to have done your homework here and hopefully the following will be of help to you. Youll also receive other pieces of wisdom from others as well, Im sure.

The fact that you dont want to give up your current job kind of rules out AAT as to practice as a bookkeeper under them, you need to first gain a certain level of experience. This would only be a suitable route if you had ambitions to study further to accounting qualifications, which youve indicated is not the case.

ICB or IAB would be suitable for your requirements and I understand that the ICB route allows quicker completion because of the nature of the exams, where they are all completed on an on-demand basis. In terms of recognition of qualification, if you chose later to study toward AAT, this is not an issue. If you took this route it would be between you and your AAT provider to determine what Level you started at. I mentioned in a recent post that we recently had a student who was MICB and she started AAT at Level 4, and seems to be doing ok.

Good luck with your continued search and future study.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Not quite true Brian.

An AAT student can practice provided that they make no mention of the AAT. (They would need to get their MLR through HMRC).

Also, reading between the lines of Bens post it seems that he is looking to do the books of the family business which is not considered offering services to the general public so quite different to the usual site question that we get.

That he speaks of wanting to replace the accountant in a business large enough to have a bookkeeper and an accountant would seem to me that he should be looking at AAT minimum and preferably ACCA which is what he aspires to anyway.

Just my reading of the scenario,

kind regards,

Shaun.

benp1987 · Member

Also Just spotted this on the home learning college website.....

To enrol on the ACCA Level 4 Diploma in Accounting & Business course you must have a minimum of three GCSEs and two A Levels in five individual subjects, including English and Maths. Three years accounting experience are also preferable although exceptions can be made for students who demonstrate sufficient competence.

I lack the A-levels, the Three years experience and don't think I'd be able to wing it!

Brian McVean · Senior Member

Shamus wrote:
Not quite true Brian.

An AAT student can practice provided that they make no mention of the AAT. (They would need to get their MLR through HMRC)

Hi Shaun,

I think the fact I said pracrice under aat makes my statement quite accurate. I just think that you are suggesting a course of study that is quite unnecessary for Ben's requirements. He states he doesnt Think he has it in him for a five year acca route. He wants to practice as a bookkeeper which rules AAT out unless he gains experience first. The fact he wants to complete his qualifications quickly, in my opinion, ICB is his best option.

I know you hhave nothing personal against ICB, indeed you have praised there efforts in promoting the bookkeeping profession. However, I'm struggling to recall an occasion where you have indicated that this may be the most suitable study route For anyone.

Ben,

The ICB can also cover you for payroll and self assessment services and you should give their qualifications serious consideration.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Ben,

yes, in order to offer your services to the general public you would suffer with the experience catch 22.

AAT studies go much further than ICB and IAB, however, of the two IAB leads to IFA which is a sound accountancy body at a similar level to AAT.

As Brian suggests, ICB and IAB are good options but with either of them you would need to be at the highest level before considering the accounts of limited companies and even then, those qualifications are not really intended to service that level of business so your knowledge base would be extremely restricted.

Even at AAT you only learn the basics which explains why AAT would be attainable in two years where ACCA would be at least five.

The way to look at your choices and eliminate the supervisory bodies that do not make the cut is to consider what you really want to do, what exposure can you have to supervised experience, how do you want to appear to others, what your timeframe is.

The supervised experience by a qualified accountant (with a relevant body) is always the killer and is the main reason why the ICB is so popular with career changers as it does not have that experience requirement.

I think that the ICB do require you to have experience at the later levels in order to offer services to limited companies but am unable to confirm as their sites just been updated and its really messed up with 404's (page not found) from dead links all over the place. (Tried to find their old site which was much easier to navigate but it seems to have disappeared).

Giving them a chance though I think that the new sites a work in progress rather than a finished product so sure that the navigation, inability to find anything at the moment and broken links will be sorted out imminently.

kind regards,

Shaun.

ChrisA · Member

Hi

ICB website links:

http://www.bookkeepers.org.uk/Membership/Join-by-Examination gives details of the different levels

The old website, or at least some of it is still at old.bookkeepers.org.uk

Brian McVean · Senior Member

matt123 wrote:
Brian McVean wrote:

The fact that you dont want to give up your current job kind of rules out AAT as to practice as a bookkeeper under them, you need to first gain a certain level of experience. This would only be a suitable route if you had ambitions to study further to accounting qualifications, which youve indicated is not the case.

Not necessarily. I am doing AAT alongside my current job and obtained a practice licence via exemptions for a licence and membership with the IAB so I can offer bookkeeping and will still have the AAT qualification at the end for the CV and a few exemptions for the chartered bodies if I wanted to take it further.

My point was that he could not practice under the aat.

-- Edited by matt123 on Thursday 21st of November 2013 05:18:44 PM

-- Edited by matt123 on Thursday 21st of November 2013 05:19:08 PM

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Brian,

anyone studying towards AAT can practice as a bookkeeper provided that they make no mantion of their affiliation to the AAT.

The experience requirement is only required in order to gain MAAT status.

I gave ben the run down on ACCA because he asked about them in his first post assuming that he would not be able to go down that route but if it had only been the family business that would potentially have been his best route (and with self study not that much more expensive than AAT).

With AAT, Payroll and Self assessment come under personal taxation. ICB are the only one that seperates those out and requires that one gains a qualification in order to offer those services.

I am not saying thats a bad thing. No study on any subject is ever bad. Just saying how the ICB syllabus fits into the AAT one (the self assessment and Payroll with AAT are not as detailed as ICB but they are there).

There are many instances on here where I have suggested ICB or IAB as the best option although of late the bulk of those asking the questions it seems apparent that AAT is the level that they should be considering as time and again people are expecting to offer accounting services to clients and where ICB/IAB is geared to bookkeeping AAT includes the entirety of the bookkeeping syllabuses plus covers the basics of accountancy.

That said, the ICB as well have abandoned the idea that bookkeeping is a profession inn its own right as even from the lowest levels the qualifications go through top accounts, not trial balance which is where bookkeeping ends.

I always strive to be fair and try to give alternatives so where applicable advise people to consider ICB/IAB, Ideal/TL, Premier/Eagle, etc.

If someone came on here and said that they wanted to be a bookkeeper for the self employed only then I would have no qualms about putting ICB forwards as a suggestion but that is not how the questions have been falling of late.

Go back through them and look at the twists such as limited company accounts, wanting to keep open the option of employment, etc.

Horses for courses and all that.

kind regards,

Shaun.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Think that I see what your going for Brian.

Its a play on words. Your saying that you can't mention AAT even though you are, not that you cannot practice whilst working towards AAT.

To be honest though thats a flawed arguement in that you can still practice whether you can mention affiliation or not so where is the issue?

matt123 · Senior Member

My point was arguing against the "ruling out the AAT" comment as you can still practice without an AAT licence and hold the qualifications.

benp1987 · Member

Hmmmm, a lot to take in. lol. So in a nut shell, completing everything ICB had to offer I'd be able to do the books for my pops limited company but still be pretty poor on the accounting side of things? And I can only work for other limited companies and sign off my own work if I have ACCA accreditation's?? Sorry for all the questions guys but I'm from a sales background and literally have no idea about the difference between the jobs an account and a booker do! I apologise for my ignorance.

matt123 · Senior Member

The directors sign the accounts. Anyone can produce them if they have the knowledge. AAT gives you the basic skills but I would say you will need experience to go with the qualification.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Ben,

sorry, only mentioned ACCA because you did in your first post.

There is a lot to learn to get to the stage where you are signing off accounts as an accountant.

There is nothing to stop anyone from signing off accounts. It is the entities managements job to prepare the accounts, not an accountants. They simply divest the work to an accountant in order that it is done properly, but...

For your family business nobody is likely to sue you but the rest of the country seems a pretty litigous bunch so the thing that you need to be careful of is what you don't know.

The higher the qualification the more knowledge that they cover with ACCA and ACA pretty much top of the food chain (ok, ACA is higher).

Even if you have PII if you do anything beyond your experience and qualification level your insurance will not cover you.

If you are ACCA you are absolutely forbidden to do anything for other businesses beyond bookkeeping to trial balance, VAT and Payroll work until you have a practicing certificate which is why the suggestion was only made whilst it seemed that you were looking to represent your family only.

Even with AAT there is the proviso that students must not do anything that is beyond their capability which would stop dead signing off accounts or giving tax advice and preparing reports that would be relied upon by banks etc. regardless of not using the AAT letters unless you already have experience in those fields.

One thing that you should consider here is that the only thing easy about this is making mistakes. Its going to take a lot of investment in time and money to reach a level of competence sufficient to produce a set of accounts and tax computation.

The bookkeeping qualifications are quick, cheap and teach bookkeeping well and the absolute basics of accountancy. To my mind thats just not enough as they do not cover tax or financial reporting in sufficient depth to hold oneself out to be an accountant.

There is no shortcut to that knowledge base, its a long hard slog with AAT being the fastest. The training is excellent and for many SME's it's enough.

You have the opportunity to take that and to practice bookkeeping first for the family business and reporting to the accountant. At the same time you could attempt to mirror the work that the accountant does and eventually perhaps prepare the company accounts, maybe under the supervision of the accountant.

After a while you would have sufficient experience signed off in order to use the letters and offer your services to the public. Start off with a few micro business and build slowly, forever pushing your comfort zone without ever fully breaking out of it until you are able to work with small businesses as an entry level accountant.

As hinted at by Brian ICB is a faster route to qualification and practice certificate but from the description of your requirements which seemed to emphasise accountancy I am seeing AAT as a better fit for what you are looking to achieve.

So, we basically haven't moved on from the original kunundrum except that we should probably write off ACCA.

Think that this is very much a case that all the facts are in the above and it comes down to what you feel is right for you.

At the entry level (level II for all of them) all three are pretty much the same (at the end of the day basic bookkeeping is basic bookkeeping no matter what colour you paint it) its from level III that they really go there different ways and develop their own personalities.

Should be interesting to see which way that you decide to go,

kind regards,

Shaun.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Matt,

snap,

great minds and all that.

Seems to always come as a great surprise to the owners of companies that they are responsible for their own books!

More than once I've had to point to the bit in the engagement letter that they signed.

One who didn't believe that was legal I even had to go and show them ISRS4410... first page, item 1, first paragraph, first sebetence "when engaged to assist management with the preparation and presentation of historical financial information".

benp1987 · Member

Really appreciate the time your putting in here Shaun, think I've certainly been naive to the work involved. At what point through the AAT course would you consider one competent to perform what I'm asking? If any that is. From what Brain said early in regards to a client jumping from ICB to AAT level 4 wouldn't that be missing a hell of a lot of info out if you consider covering all the ICB courses still be far from enough? Now it isn't an option for me to get experience while studying due to working full time. is there any ways around this if I went down the AAT route? I simply can't afford to drop 10k off my wage to enter an accounting company at a low level.

Brian McVean · Senior Member

Hi Ben,

Studying with ICB will allow you to offer a comprehensive bookkeeping & accounting service, although there will be times where you do need to cosy up to an accountant for the signing off of accounts or tax advice. In recent ICB breakfast meetings there were accountants emphasising the importance of a relationship between bookkeepers & accountants and we would always advise those branching out in business on their own, as a bookkeeper, do seek the advice of an accountant when required. Hooking up with an accountant can also be a good source for clients.

Shaun & Matt,

I was not fishing for an argument. Indeed, my first post was being typed at the same time as Shaun posted his own first reply. Heres where I am coming from. I have offered advice to god knows how many students over the years, all of it provided honestly in line what I think is best for the student. I still think strongly that ICB is Bens best route as it is far more suited to his end goal. What point is there of studying for a qualification, much of which is irrelevant to what he wants to do professionally, if you cannot openly practice under their umbrella?

There is a lot of advice provided indicating that this or that qualification allows an easier passage onto further qualifications, well warranted in many cases. However, at the end of the day not everyone wants to, or needs to become an accountant.

Good night folks smile

PS does anyone else have real trouble formatting a reply on here from a mobile device?

benp1987 · Member

Thanks a lot for the info Brian, I was really hoping that completing the ICB900 package would really leave me in good stead to take over everything, I know this is a highly uneducated and possibly very naïve comment but it's only sandwiches and pies!!! lol. Supplier invoices out, cash in. Can It really be that hard??? lol. I'm pretty sure I'm going to go down the ICB route, take over the books and the payroll as soon as possible and then strive to getting educated enough to take over the accounting roll too.

This is the ICB900 package in case anybody wasn't sure.

Level I Basic Bookkeeping
Level II Manual Bookkeeping
Level III Manual Bookkeeping
Level II Computerised Bookkeeping (FULLY Licensed Sage Instant Accounts)
Level III Computerised Bookkeeping
Level III Payroll Management (FULLY Licensed Sage 50 Payroll)
Level III Self Assessment

I think is would also be wise to throw in Diploma small business financial control too.

Surely I'll be classed as a chartered Accountant after all that lot!!!!!!!!!! ;)

-- Edited by benp1987 on Friday 22nd of November 2013 08:03:23 AM

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

benp1987 wrote:
Surely I'll be classed as a chartered Accountant after all that lot!!!!!!!!!! ;)

lol.

well you would be chartered certified if you did this lot :

Fundamentals Knowledge

F1 Accountant in Business
F2 Management Accounting
F3 Financial Accounting

Fundamentals Skills

F4 Corporate and Business Law
F5 Performance Management
F6 Taxation
F7 Financial Reporting
F8 Audit and Assurance
F9 Financial Management

Professional Essentials

P1 Governance, Risk and Ethics
P2 Corporate Reporting
P3 Business Analysis

Professional Options

P4 Advanced Financial Management
P5 Advanced Performance Management
P6 Advanced Taxation
P7 Advanced Audit and Assurance

Good luck with whatever route you go down,

kind regards,

Shaun.

benp1987 · Member

Ha ha, Think I'll pass on that if you don't mind Shaun. lol.

benp1987 · Member

benp1987 wrote:
Really appreciate the time your putting in here Shaun, think I've certainly been naive to the work involved. At what point through the AAT course would you consider one competent to perform what I'm asking? If any that is. From what Brain said early in regards to a client jumping from ICB to AAT level 4 wouldn't that be missing a hell of a lot of info out if you consider covering all the ICB courses still be far from enough? Now it isn't an option for me to get experience while studying due to working full time. is there any ways around this if I went down the AAT route? I simply can't afford to drop 10k off my wage to enter an accounting company at a low level.

Shaun my good man would you mind trying to address a couple of these questions?

Brian McVean · Senior Member

benp1987 wrote:
I know this is a highly uneducated and possibly very naïve comment but it's only sandwiches and pies!!! lol. Supplier invoices out, cash in. Can It really be that hard??? lol.

-- Edited by benp1987 on Friday 22nd of November 2013 08:03:23 AM

Hi Ben,

I love your thinking and I'm sure there are thousands of students out there that wished it were that simple biggrin . If you take the plunge and undertake this line of study I think you might be pleasantly surprised at the coverage, where Level III is very comprehensive, and what you will be able to do upon completion.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

benp1987 wrote:
benp1987 wrote:
At what point through the AAT course would you consider one competent to perform what I'm asking?
By the end of level III things will start to drop into place and you could make a competent bookkeeper at that stage as level II was pure bookkeeping and level III has expanded on that by putting matters into context and introducing you to accounting.
Things move up a gear at level IV where you learn much more about accountancy and its only at this stage that you should consider looking at proper accounts works.
From what Brain said early in regards to a client jumping from ICB to AAT level 4 wouldn't that be missing a hell of a lot of info out if you consider covering all the ICB courses still be far from enough?
Did the person have prioer experience? Did they struggle with level IV? Did they pass everything? Did they come to ICB with other qualifications? (such as the OU certifiecate in accountancy? or an HNC in accounting?)
Anything is possible and every student is different but for the most part I think that you would have serious problems finding a training provider willing to start you at level IV is your only exposure to the industry was ICB training.
The reasoning for that is that the quality trainers want their students to succeed and starting people on a path beyond their capability is for most setting the person up for failure which will end up costing the student more (in both time and money) than if they had sat both level III and level IV.
Note that I am not saying that its impossible, I'm just saying that in many cases it would be an extremely unwise approach.
Certainly to be considered by a training provider for that you would need to attain an almost perfect score in the AAT skillcheck plus prove competence with cost models and management accounting concepts which are expected carry forwards knowledge goiing into level IV.
Now it isn't an option for me to get experience while studying due to working full time. is there any ways around this if I went down the AAT route?
I covered this one but its buried in an earlier reply.
In becoming a competent bookkeeper, taking over that side of things working closely with the accountant who could sign off your experience.
Also take on a few other bookkeeping clients and try to develop a close working relationship with the accountant giving them the accounts whilst you do the bookkeeping.
Doing it part time will take a few years to get the experience requirement but you would get there and then you could decide how sensible an idea it is to take over the accounts from the knowledge base of being MAAT and seeing what accounts prep actually incorporates.
I simply can't afford to drop 10k off my wage to enter an accounting company at a low level.
The initial drop will be much further than you expect unless there is a good income to be made from the bookkeeping alone of your fathers business.
It does build up over time but whatever you think that your minimum first year fee's will be divide them by your shoesize and you will be much closer.
The main site grievance a couple of years back was that people would get more and have more secure income stacking shelves in Tesco than being a qualified bookkeeper.
Things have improved a little as we come out of recession but make no mistake there is a LOT of competition for the pool of clients, and many clients regard us as a necessary overhead rather than a benefit to their business so look for the cheapest option which is often people willing to work for much less than minimum wage doing work beyond their level of experience and training just in order to secure clients.
Just a warning there that this industry may not be what you expect it to be.

Shaun my good man would you mind trying to address a couple of these questions?

benp1987 · Member

I think that just about covers it. Shaun and Brian I can't thank you enough for the info. Pretty sure that seals it for me. I'm going to Keep going down the ICB route and hopefully do most of the IV add on courses to educated myself further.

Just one last question. Although I'll be able to do my father accounts (when able of course), is my limit with other limited companies to only take this to draft level?? Will these still need signing off?

Brian I'll be in touch soon.

Brian McVean · Senior Member

Hi Ben,

On completion of Level III you can complete draft accounts for Limited Companies but you cannot complete these due to Corporation Tax issues. However, you've indicated that you may later consider the Level IV qualifications and, on completion of the Business Tax module, this restriction will be lifted. All good news then smile .

Hopefully speak soon.

benp1987 · Member

Sounds like a plan! Doesn't the fact that it's a family business come into play like Shaun said earlier? I was under the impression that this would exempt me from this rule given that I wouldn't be offering my services to the public?

Brian McVean · Senior Member

As Matt said earlier, Ben, the owner can sign them off. So, between yourself and your father, if you are happy, complete them and let your father sign them. My understanding is that if you were to sign them off yourself, then you would have no comeback on your Public Liability Insurance if things went slightly awry.