I rang the AAT this morning asking if I can practice bookkeeping under their MIP scheme since I already have MAAT status. They said this is only possible if I have 12 months bookkeeping work experience, which I do not have.
I then asked if I can practice under ICB since I already have a practice license with them. They said that is only possible if the ICB is both a certified and chartered body, and as you know, ICB is only a certified body.
The AAT said considering the above, the only other way I can practice under the ICB is to surrender my MAAT status with them first.
I am very disappointed at this response. I worked hard to get my MAAT status with the AAT. What would you do in my situation? Would you give up MAAT status in order to practice bookkeeping under ICB and then perhaps reapply for MAAT status in the future?
thats pretty much what I've said to you several times in this and other threads including a few posts above in relation to the catch 22 of you not being able to practice under either body because you moved up from student to MAAT and as soon as you are allowed to use the letters the restrictions cut in (the AAT is right in that as the last thing that the public need is to be confused as to the level of experience of the person that they are dealing with).
ICB would only be of use to you if you now step down from AAT due to the mistake of choosing to go to MAAT status as you cannot be both AAT and ICB if you can use the AAT letters (why do I sense the blood draining from the faces of a hundred people reading this?).
If you think that the AAT is difficult try going ACCA! regulation 8 would tie you up in knots and spit out the pieces.
Maybe you should consider moving from AAT to CIMA who are more flexible on students offering bookkeeping services whilst they study? (with MLR through HMRC). Its a quality qualification although I personally think that its traditional standing of neck and neck with ACCA suffered somewhat when CIMA left the CCAB party a couple of years back so I would now put ACCA ahead of CIMA but ACCA would not be at all the qualification that you should be looking at if you want to practice whilst working towards qualification.
If you go that route you would be swapping MAAT for PQ status but be warned that the exams of CIMA (and the ACCA) are nothing like those of the AAT. After the first feww papers the higher bodies have extremely high drop out rates on the basis that only the best should make it through and you could end up giving up your hard earned MAAT status for a qualification that you find impossible to pass so eventually end up with nothing except a lot of debt for your studies.
If you do pass them, don't make the mistake again of jumping to the letters without first checking the small print of the professional bodies rules.
Also, if you do go in that direction hope that you've got a strong stomach for management accounting as the M isn't in that qualifications name by accident!
kind regards,
Shaun.
p.s. as you have identified, ICB is an option but only if you give up your AAT status. the question to ask yourself is whether you feel that a move in that direction is worth losing MAAT for when at the moment you could utilise it to move to PQ status... Although at a cost as the higher bodies tend to offer exemptions in the form of guaranteed passes so it could be quite expensive to move over as you will still have to pay for the exams that you get exemptions from.
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Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
There is a confusion here, Manjinder I will call you back, but for others reading this I will explain:
Shaun your comment about a licence being miss sold does not make sense as AAT is not a primary body.
There is always confusion with practice licences/certificates between the law (AML) and the professional body's own rules.
AML rules
The law on AML says you must have a supervision licence from 1 supervisory professional body, you can choose which one if you are with more than 1, but the bodies must be happy and agree it (i.e. you cannot be under disciplinary with one and just swap over to avoid it). If you are not with a professional supervisory body you can register with the Default Regulator which is HMRC.
Professional body rules for members in practice (offering services regardless of clients)
These obviously differ between bodies, but I will briefly cover AAT and ICB as they are in this discussion (you should always confirm with your professional body if you are unsure):
AAT have an experience requirement for their full licence and so have a Registered Status which you can obtain for a maximum 2 years whilst you study and pass a series of Practice Management tests. Once you have passed these tests you can take out their full Practice Licence.
If you are also eligible for AML supervision from another body you can choose which body to use. You still must have a Practice Licence.
ICB
The ICB separate individuals from the company, so if you are a sole trader you must have the Practice Licence, or if you have a company then the company must have the licence. For example, if you are a husband and wife partnership only the partnership needs a Practice Licence and AML superivision (you both need membership though), whereas with the AAT you both must have a licence and supervision.
There are no exemptions from the Practice Licence, however, if you are working in a company the company can have the licence. Contact ICB for details on this.
There is no experience requirement, only qualifications are needed.
If you are also eligible for AML supervision from another body you can choose which body to use, if the other body is a CCAB member you should choose them. You still must have a Practice Licence.
Conclusion
So Manjinder in your situation you should take out the Registered Status and complete the practice management tests with AAT, then you can have a practice licence from both ICB and AAT. You can then choose which one is your supervisory body. There is no need to resign from the AAT.
People tend to choose ICB as their supervisory body as they have free AML software and their AML supervision is also free. Both bodies have an AML helpline and do various seminars etc..
you are coming to this from the MLR perspective where the debate was about being MAAT and registered with someone else to practice whilst being able to use the AAT letters which you can understand the AAT's stance in that the public would get confused about an MAAT practicing without having MIP status earned by experience.
The wording within my reply above was quite subtle so you may have missed the emphasis. AAT students can quite happily practice through other professional bodies as they cannot use their letters. The mistake that Manjinder has made was moving from AAT student to MAAT.
I'm sure that the ICB have lots of AAT students practicing through them and there is no issue with that. Its only the MAATs who do not have the experience requirement to be MIPs practicing through another body where there is an issue.
The MLR issue is a seperate one but of course as identified by yourself no less important (and seemingly just as peppered with land mines for the unwary).
Also, if you read my post its not stating that the practice certificate is missold but rather giving the two sides of the arguement. Firstly from the perspective of the sale of the practice certificate and then the counter arguement in relation to the ICBs expectation over someone requesting such certification.
I thought that it was quite balanced in giving the arguement from both sides before telling Manjinder that he should have read the small print in relation to moving up to MAAT which is the bit that has shot him in the foot (your AAT link pretty much backs up that statement).
Maybe if read quickly my post doesn't come accross as it was intended but if you go back and reread hopefully you will see what I was trying to put accross.
As you say James, if Manjinder had a practice certificate from the AAT he could also have one from the ICB but at the moment if he keeps MAAT without being able to get an AAT practice certificate then he cannot have one from the ICB without getting in trouble with the AAT purely on the back of his upgrading from student to MAAT.
Kind regards,
Shaun.
__________________
Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
I am just about to pop out so have read your post quickly so I apologise if I missed something, but...
ICB does not affect anything, neither does his MAAT status.
Regarding AAT MIP he does not have the experience so should go down the Registered Status route instead.
He then does the Practice Management tests, once he has passed those he can become an MIP.
ICB have a lot of AAT members and students as I am sure the AAT have plenty of ICB members and students. Even if he stayed as a student with AAT he would still face this problem.
After some very serious networking and marketing, I may now have a client!! He is a friend of a friend's of a friend's...
Anyway, to cut a long story short, this guy is a shopkeeper and has been running his grocery/off license shop for a number of years, and gets his accountant to complete the books for him. He does not know whether his accountant is a certified or chartered accountant.
How would I go about picking up his accounts from where the accountant left off? Would I need to have a meeting with the accountant in order to do this? He may be reluctant to talk to me since he would know I am pinching one of his clients!!
What things should I take into consideration when agreeing to do the accounts for this shop keeper?
Most importantly, do you think I would be suitably qualified in order to do the accounts, since a qualified accountant has been doing them before? Finally, what is the difference between a book keeper and an accountant?
long time since we saw you on here, good to have you back.
You write to the incumbent accountant asking them if there is any reason that you should not take over the books of your client (this is called an ettiquette letter and should be professionally written).
Your client must give the accountant permission to talk to you before they are allowed reply (basic ethic of client confidentiality). Clients don't like this as they think that hiring a new representitive is just that and does not entail the embarrassment of them talking to the accountant before they go. (although email makes that easier).
If you new clients payments to the incumbent are up to date (there may be a get out clause in their contract) then if the accountant cannot convince the client to remain (assuming that they want them to) there is no legal reason for them to not talk to you.
You may hit an issue where accountants will not ackwoledge bookkeepers in which case you will need for your client to give you a copy of the accounts and get all of their paperwork (not the accountants paperwork) back from the accountant.
You are entitled to a copy of the last accounts produced and the trial balance upon which such accounts were built. The accountant does not have to provide anything else although at a price generally everything is negotiable (although you will not get your hands on the clients permanent file).
The difference between a bookkeeper and an accountant is that bookkeeping stops at trial balance where accountancy covers everything including bookkeeping.
the bulk of those calling themselves bookkeepers are in reality accountants but defining themselves as a misuse of the word bookkeeper by the size of the business that they provide a full service for.
Both ICB and IAB drift off into accountancy as their qualifications progress... Exactly the same as any other accountancy qualification... Admit it, you've done both AAT and ICB what really is the difference between them... Besides eithics and tax both of which should be in the ICB syllabus.... Nothing. AAT, ACCA, CIMA, ACA all start with bookkeeping and move onto accountancy just the same as ICB and IAB. The only difference is where they stop, not where they start.
Actually, can you take this post to a new thread as we're already on page three and this is a new twist that may end up at another three pages (and we've not even got onto the what should I consider in relation to a shop yet).
Once you've created the new thread with a copy of your above post I'll move this reply in there and just insert a link to the new thread,
kind regards,
Shaun.
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Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
Here's a copy of a clearance letter I sent last week to an accountant. This is clearly for a limited company so you would need to adapt if it's for a sole trader:
We have been asked to act as accountant and taxation adviser to the above. I understand that you currently act for this company and I therefore ask if you would inform me of any circumstances or information of which you have knowledge and which I need to consider in deciding whether or not formally to accept this appointment.
Assuming there are no circumstances of which I need be aware, would you please supply me with the following information:-
1. A copy of the last set of accounts for the year ended 31st March 2013 prepared for the company.
2. A detailed trial balance as at that date.
3. Schedules of fixed assets, stock and work in progress, debtors and prepayments, bank reconciliations and creditors and accruals.
4. A copy of the last submitted corporation tax return.
5. A copy of the last prepared corporation tax computation and capital allowances computation.
6. A note of any claims, elections made and the amount of any losses available.
7. Notes of any outstanding issues.
8. Companies House authorisation code
9. Copies of payroll records
10. Any other information that you feel will be of assistance.
Do you find that works Rob as after the first two (plus Payroll records I assume although I would need to chase that up) the accountant is not obliged to pass you the other information (although professional courtesy would generally mean that they would accomodate the bulk of it).
I was having a chat with another accountant the other day and their stance was to pass the minimum required. Not because they had any animosity towards the new accountant but rather that in our increasingly litigous society the more information that they provide that they do not have to is the equivalent of giving ex clients ammunition for their guns.
It occured that such is the same reasoning that larger businesses use for not giving references for ex employee's
I used the old arguement that if you do everything right then you should have nothing to fear which started a really interesting debate about the gap between having done anything wrong and the cost (and time) of defending one's position in court which made such not worth defending so far easier to give accross nothing that needs defending against.
I always find those sort of conversations quite illuminating as assumptions about the accountants mindset when not giving information are a million miles from the reality of why they don't.
The above said, the accountant also said that they had no issue giving all required information to someone that they knew personally which I think is yet another strong arguement for networking with as many local accountants as possible (I know that you do that already).
I'm guessing that this is not going to end up in a new thread as we've started the ball rolling again now even though the sbject matter deserves a new one.
kind regards,
Shaun.
__________________
Shaun
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
Responses are not meant as a substitute for professional advice. Answers are intended as outline only the advice of a qualified professional with access to all relevant information should be sought before acting on any response given.
