Sorry another ICB vs IAB query! - The Book-keepers Forum (UK)

Locking Stumps · Newbie

Sorry another ICB vs IAB query!

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

pretty much swings and roundabouts.

If your intention is to move forwards then the IAB qualification will give you more exemptions from the exams of other bodies.

The thing to think about here though what you are taking the qualifications for.

There are a lot of people who have done the qualification who really struggle to find clients via the self employed route and employers are not interested unless you come to the table with experience.

Bookkeeping is one of those areas where the more that you learn the more that you realise that there is to learn.

I'm not saying not to attempt this but trust me when I say that it's going to be a lot more dificult than you think it is bith from the perspective of learning and of making it pay as a career choice.

Just want you to go forwards with your eye's open rather than believing th gumf from some training providers.

You really need to sit down and think where you want to end up. What role do you see yourself fulfilling? Are you looking o offer accounts production or just bookkeeping services up to trial balance.

If you are going to set up in business for yourself you need to look at what services other bookkeepers offer as you will need to offer at least the same in order to compete.

Before investing a lot of money in training courses try reading Mastering Book-keeping by doctor Peter Marshall or the AAT course companion for units 1-4, or Business accounts by David Cox.

Any of those will give you a feel for the level of learning that you will need to acquire without investing a fortune up front.

As to the experience issue, you will find it near impossible to gain experience without a qualification but having a qualification is also no guarantee of finding work even for no pay!!!

Sorry it's a bit negative but better to be truthful up front.

One positive factor to take away with you though is that a financial qualification is a sound investment and looks good on the CV no matter what role you end up fulfilling.

Keep asking questions before signing up to anything as the decisions that you make now could prove to be a real branch in your career path... Or just a detour, always difficult to tell these things.

All the best,

Shaun.

Locking Stumps · Newbie

Thanks Shaun for your honest opinion. I will have a look and see what other book keepers are offering. At the moment I am just considering book-keeping. I am fortunate that my mum is the treasury of two small local groups (walking and keep fit group) in her local area.

I am under no illusions that it is going to be difficult and it is the difficulties of getting clients that has held me back from progressing for so long. Now that the situations at work has changed I feel I need to give it a try. As far as training centres are concerned I take what they say with a pinch of salt! One of the reasons I want to be self employed is that I know I would struggle finding employment.

-- Edited by Locking Stumps on Friday 16th of March 2012 09:33:44 AM

ICBUK · Guru

Hello,

I think Shauns comment "If your intention is to move forwards then the IAB qualification will give you more exemptions from the exams of other bodies." is a bit vague, I guess he means if you are thinking of becoming an accountant. ICB does get exemptions into other bodies, for example, ACCA seem to have a path now of Certified Bookkeeper -> Accountant. If you want to become an accountant though perhaps consider AAT.

Just thought I would add some ideas (I represent ICB btw):

As Wendy says she wants to setup a bookkeeping business I would advise to check with AAT as I do not think you can setup a business until you have found a job somewhere and worked for 1 year.

I think you could separate course and qualifications from membership.

Don't think that because you have trained with a body you are stuck with it for life.

You can study towards either of the 3 (ICB, AAT or IAB), it does not mean you have to join that body in membership afterwards. So you could do an AAT course and join ICB afterwards or visa versa. Obviously check the requirements, as you may need to pay exemption fees or do further study, e.g. if you did AAT study you might need to do a little further VAT study to get into ICB.

It would be cheaper though to study with the body you want to join, and you have to make sure the courses are a good standard (some local colleges only do a very basic introduction which might not get you any exemptions from a professional body).

Pick a course based on how you want to study and what is available:

If you want to study in a school or college, or need a funded course via a college, contact your local one. They will be doing one of the bodies courses, or maybe another awarding body like OCR, and ask for details.

If you want to study by distance learning then you have a lot more options, find a course provider who has a good reputation. Check what support they offer (email tutoring, phone tutoring), check what the course price includes (registration with awarding body, examination fees etc).

Check where the examination centres will be and how often they are held (and how much they cost if the training provider does not include exam fees).

Once you have completed a course you can decide on membership at a later date. Pick membership based on what is important to you, if you want to setup a business look for who offers the most support for self employed bookkeepers (ICB biggrin ), who has the largest community of bookkeepers running their own business (ICB biggrin ), which has the most networking meetings (ICB biggrin ).

Ok take that last paragraph with a pinch of salt. smile

Just don't think that because you have trained with a body you are stuck with it for life, that might make it a little simpler to choose a course.

-- Edited by ICBUK on Friday 16th of March 2012 12:27:39 PM

Spamkebab · Expert

http://www.book-keepers.org.uk/t45308936/my-blog-the-bookkeepers-in-town-learning-the-hard-way/?page=1&sort=oldestFirst

There you go Wendy, pDm's Blog covers a lot of the concerns and little niggles when starting out on your own.

It makes for a great Saturday morning/afternoon read. I'm sure Shaun will back me up on that.

Good luck with whichever qualification and path you choose.

Neil.

Alfred · Senior Member

Can I just say that although the ICB and IAB are both very good qualifications for becoming a bookkeeper, I would advice that if your not sure of a qualification to take that you should consider the AAT. The reason I say this is that with the AAT you have to work just that bit harder and longer to get the qualification but it gives you the best of both. You can get your practice licence and work as a bookkeeper for yourself and and if things get tough you can then work full tie as an employee as it is recognised by employers. Just a thought but I think this might be a good alternative if your not sure what to do as it still gives you the option of working for self or working for employers.

Locking Stumps · Newbie

Thanks Spamkebab the blog made interesting reading!

I did look into AAT but found the cheapest course to be through my local college on a day when I'm at work. Then looking at job websites all they are asking for is experience so thought I'd leave the AAT for now and go down the book-keeping route. Thanks James for your feedback, I was thinking of a ICB course not because you we're kind enough to reply to my post, wink but as it's the cheapest course I've found and it includes Sage!

-- Edited by Locking Stumps on Friday 16th of March 2012 09:33:10 PM

Rhianrach · Expert

Locking Stumps wrote:
Thanks Spamkebab the blog made interesting reading!

I did look into AAT but found the cheapest course to be through my local college on a day when I'm at work. Then looking at job websites all they are asking for is experience so thought I'd leave the AAT for now and go down the book-keeping route. Thanks James for your feedback, I was thinking of a ICB course not because you we're kind enough to reply to my post, but as it's the cheapest course I've found and it includes Sage!

-- Edited by Locking Stumps on Friday 16th of March 2012 09:33:10 PM

This isn't completely true. If you are after gaining a job in finance then you will find, or at least I have, that the majority would like relative experience, whereas around 30-35% are happy to have next to no experience and at least be studying AAT (or even ACCA would swing it). None of these employers ask for ICB or IAB qualifications. If you fancy self employment then I would go down the ICB route.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

AAT or even ACCA!!!! Thats like saying you could buy a Fiat Punto but at a push a BMW M3 would do.

Right, it's off to sit on the naughty chair for you Steve. wink

Hope your having a good Friday evening... Have you finish ME3 yet?

Rhianrach · Expert

Shamus wrote:
AAT or even ACCA!!!! Thats like saying you could buy a Fiat Punto but at a push a BMW M3 would do.

Right, it's off to sit on the naughty chair for you Steve.
Hope your having a good Friday evening... Have you finish ME3 yet?

Yeah you know what I meant man. biggrin

Shut up shut up shut up about ME3, I'm not allowed to play it until I've completed level 3 AAT, so shhhhhhhhhh.

My friday has been fantastic, just completed a troublesome bank rec, you've got to love reconciliations they beat gaming hands down disbelief

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Was just being mishievious biggrin

For a taster of what's to come have a look at this :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVS_0Ept2ro

Oh, and definitely this one :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBktyyaV9LY

it's a case of sode accountancy, lets go and avenge the sunflower girl!

Sorry!

Spamkebab · Expert

Shaun, you could have picked a slighlty better car than a flippin M3 to compare ACCA to. Funny though, when i say the letters ACCA i think of dark cobbled streets, smog and horse drawn carriage.

Rhianrach · Expert

It's also the sound you make when coughing up phlegm........................................ evileye

Spamkebab · Expert

Lol Steve,

I may be getting the words Draconian (one of Shauns descriptives) and Dickensian confused, although you could probably use both to describe ACCA.

Anyway, back to ME3.....................

Just messing with you, I too have sworn off playing until i have completed my course. Had a little look at forthcoming and new releases this morning but nothing seems to capture my attention at the moment.

Rhianrach · Expert

Spamkebab wrote:
Lol Steve,

I may be getting the words Draconian (one of Shauns descriptives) and Dickensian confused, although you could probably use both to describe ACCA.

Anyway, back to ME3.....................

Just messing with you, I too have sworn off playing until i have completed my course. Had a little look at forthcoming and new releases this morning but nothing seems to capture my attention at the moment.

I've had to start going to GA meetings and everything, stupid exams getting in the way of some serious gaming time. Saying that, you take your exams at the same place as me. Have you ever been asked for ID? I could just get someone else to take my exams whilst I "study" ME3. blankstare

Spamkebab · Expert

I actually got through the first 5 lvl 3 exams without being asked for ID and was thinking along the same lines as you. The only thing is, i had sat all the difficult exams by then and wasn't about to let someone wear a big curly wig and sit the easy ones for me.

This site is turning into guru3d lol.

You use Kaplan Manchester? The toilets are brilliant for a pre-exam study material recap lol.

We could book for the same day and get a brew and have a natter. I'll have to learn to speak ferret though.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Peeps,

Neil : "you could have picked a slighlty better car than a flippin M3" - If you don't love it your not driving it right. Like all beemers corners at speed like it's on rails (thank you Z frame) and with the M3 you get a lot of muscle for a (compatively) reasonable price. Also, I've reserved AMG Mercs for comparrison to the ICAEW.... Mmm, must think of some American car now for CIMA. (lol).

Steve : "I could just get someone else to take my exams whilst I study ME3" Apparently if you do every side mission to amass a fleet of 5000+ ships to face the Reapers and choose to destroy them then there is a completely different ending. Of course, doing every side mission (and I assume every DLC as well!) to put that fleet together is going to mean a serious investment in study time.

Neil : "wasn't about to let someone wear a big curly wig and sit the easy ones for me" - They might have thought that you were one of the invigilators.

Neil : "The toilets are brilliant for a pre-exam study material recap" - At the ACCA exams they are wise to the scribbled notes on toilet walls so the toilets that you can go to before the exams start are not the same one's that you are escorted to if you need them during the exam... Although who on earth can afford to waste even 5 mins of exam time.

Neil : "Dickensian" - Mmm, ACCA members who have passed the exams working all hours for minimal return, often sub minimum wage (when one includes the free time expectation) in order to gain the experience requirement. I still think of Ebeneezer as more ICAEW material though. lol

Locking Stumps · Newbie

I'm getting confused now confuse

In my ideal world I would like to keep my part time job working 3 days a week and work from home offering book keeping service during school hours Mon and Fri. I'm not out to make a fortune, a couple of thousand pounds of year would be sufficient for a few extra luxuries.

But I know it is only a matter of time before it's my turn to be made redundant (it's a yearly tradition with I have managed to avoid for 3yrs now) If I am made redundant and my book keeping business is doing well I would probably try and work self employed full time. Otherwise I'd try and find another part time job in finance.

If I study the AAT I need 1yrs experience before I can set up my own book keeping business. If employers are looking for experience how do I get it?

If I study ICB I can set up a book keeping business but would struggle getting into the workplace. Or would self employed book keeping be sufficient experience?

-- Edited by Locking Stumps on Saturday 17th of March 2012 09:07:08 PM

Wella · Expert

Hi Wendy

I can see your predicament but from what I have read I think I would probably say go down the ICB/ IAB route.

These routes are the quickest way to gain a good working knowledge of bookkeeping, and gain a qualification.

Your main reason for doing it is to start a part time business, to top up your current income, and build on it as a backup if you are made redundant. It would be very difficult to do this via the AAT route. Not impossible but the time frame would not fit with your plan.

If in the event you wanted employment at a later date, you would have gained enough experience to be confident at an interview, and running your own bookkeeping business, would be another string to your bow on your CV. It may not be enough to get you in to an accountancy practice but it probably wouldn't get overlooked, if it was for a job in a small business (who may well not know about AAT themselves)

I would have loved to have gone down the AAT route myself, as regardless of the playing field starting to level out, an AAT qualification carries a certain amount of kudos but if I were starting again, I would still choose the ICB route.

The ICB are working very hard at gaining industry recognition, and if you ever decide you want employment it may well be more widely recognised by then.

Just a few of my thoughts

Edit: Just wanted to add, that even after getting an ICB/ IAB qualification, if you ever decided that bookkeeping wasn't the business you wanted to run but chose to start a different type of business, you would be in a better position than 99% of other small business owners, who don't know anything about bookkeeping and accounts

HTH

Bill

-- Edited by Wella on Sunday 18th of March 2012 10:03:12 AM

Spamkebab · Expert

Welcome to my world Wendy. Although i am trying to land a position in industry, i too have very little experience but hopefully sometime this year i will be AAT (fully) qualified, i fear that the hard work shall begin after completion of AAT, trying to gain a position somewhere.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Wella wrote:
you would be in a better position than 99% of other small business owners, who don't know anything about bookkeeping and accounts

Sometimes the percentage seems higher than that Bill!

Think that I'm starting to develop a hard patch on my brow from repeatedly hitting my head against the desk after a client leaves the offices.

Happy Sunday,

Shaun.

P.S. Excellent reply by the way and I totally concur with it espechially in relation to getting a finance qualification doesn't ever do anyone any harm... Well, maybe Nick Leeson... And the audit Junior and Bannerman, Johnston & Macklay.... And maybe all of the accountants in the US arm of Arthur Andersen... biggrin

Wella · Expert

Hi Shaun

Bit of a lazy Sunday for me smile

Know what you mean about the hard patch on the brow. My cure for that is an extra thick mouse mat strategically place on the desk.

I was going to say 95%, then had a rethink but thought 99.99999% was a little harsh, so opted to round down (weaning myself on to the "there, or thereabouts" ethos biggrin )

Hope you're having a good one

Bill

ICBUK · Guru

Hi Sue,

Bit of a strong statement there, don't tarnish ICB with the same brush smile

Being a member of a professional body will be more expensive (but you can make that back on the benefits which I will go into later), but the extra cost should be worth while if you take your profession seriously.

Professional bodies are supposed to represent your interests to the industry and related industries, for example, banks, accountants, government etc etc.

In fact, a good example of this would be that this month ICB CEO was at the European Parliament as the keynote speaker talking to various important groups on increasing business finance and putting forward the good work of ICB members in helping SMEs in Europe. Read more: http://www.bookkeepers.org.uk/News/1518

Also this year there a bill going through parliament on reducing the need to submit accounts for small businesses. You should be a member of a body who is invovled (like the ICB) in giving your thoughts towards this and how it might affect the need to pass work to an accountant to finalise accounts.

Professional bodies should also be supportive. The ICB has arranged 38 meetings already this year where you can meet other members and network. There is also a helpline for technical and legal advice. I know you have this forum, but sometimes it is nice to talk to someone on the phone, or maybe it is private and you want it completely confidential.

MLR support - HMRC might be cheaper but you need to buy the forms etc from somewhere else. ICB include these forms free along with telephone support.

Members Directory - free listing on the ICB's website, type bookkeeper into any search engine and ICB's website comes up first or second. Great SEO and having that site list your business or link to your website.

Anyway there are a lot of benefits for being a member. Perhaps if none of that interests you and you purely want to save a few quid then ICBenefits can help, with savings on high street stores and supermarkets it is easy to save back the cost of membership.

For example, currently there is 5% off at Sainsbury's and ASDA. So if you spend £35 per week on food you save £91 per year!

Add to that savings at places like Debenhams, M&S, Tesco, Boots and much much more!

Now not even cost is an issue so there is no reason not to join biggrin

-- Edited by ICBUK on Monday 19th of March 2012 06:00:01 PM

YLB-HO · Guru

Susie Sue wrote:
If you're already qualified what advantages are there being a member of IAB/ICB etc? I am thinking of registering for MLR with HMRC as it works out cheaper than my IAB membership and I've been thinking about the advantages of IAB membership - I can't think of any!

Can anybody here tell me what they are!

Thanking you!

I find it sad you think that way.

What you get out of the IAB is up to you. I know the IAB members who attend the IFA branch meetings in Alton completely free of charge for up to 5 CPD points, supper and the chance to network with members of other professional bodies don't think the same as you. Like all IAB members they are welcome at IFA branch meetings (most are free of charge).

Have you looked at the free members handbook? IAB members are part of Working Together with the HMRC (infomation available on the IAB members area) I could go on, but as a member it is up to you to find out.

-- Edited by YLB-HO on Monday 19th of March 2012 09:08:04 PM

Susie Sue · Senior Member

If you're already qualified what advantages are there being a member of IAB/ICB etc? I am thinking of registering for MLR with HMRC as it works out cheaper than my IAB membership and I've been thinking about the advantages of IAB membership - I can't think of any!

Can anybody here tell me what they are!

Thanking you!

Rhianrach · Expert

Susie Sue wrote:
If you're already qualified what advantages are there being a member of IAB/ICB etc? I am thinking of registering for MLR with HMRC as it works out cheaper than my IAB membership and I've been thinking about the advantages of IAB membership - I can't think of any!

Can anybody here tell me what they are!

Thanking you!

You get a shiny crest. biggrin

Susie Sue · Senior Member

Ooooh - did I post my question too bluntly!? (that's a yorkshire lass for you!

)

Didn't mean to ruffle any feathers - it was a genuine question to the forum members as to what they thought they got from their membership as I honestly couldn't think of any. Frauke - don't be sad! I know it is up to me to find out - and believe it or not I do look at the website but the meeting in Alton is not viable at all - would be approximately a 6 hour round trip and then the length of the meeting. (Which I think applies to most of the meetings)

Thanks for your reply James - I didn't mean to tarnish anybody - but sounds interesting - will definately look into it.

Steve - that's all I could think of too! Ha!

Anyhoo - thanks anyway.

YLB-HO · Guru

Hi Sue,

You can find details of IFA branches here: http://www.ifa.org.uk/branches/map/ Theres one in North Ridings and one in Sheffield & Humberside. Just contact the secretaries to ask if you can come to their meetings first and I'm sure they will welcome you. (Most IFA branch meetings are free to IAB members)

I do know there are plans to do more for members by the IAB, but often its difficult to know what members want. When I first joined the IAB I had my practice certificate with them (I later qualified with the IFA), and in those days the "find a book-keeper" facility did not exist.

The IAB have a habit of introducing things for members very quietly (!) so you do need to keep looking and asking for things.

ICBUK · Guru

Hi Sue,

That's ok no worries.

The next ICB meeting near you is in Leeds in May (be here sooner than you think smile ). You just missed the March meeting which was last week.

It is a smaller meeting organised by the members themselves, usually around 15-25 members.

Having said that I am going to the Berkshire meeting tonight and there are 50 people going.

YLB-HO · Guru

Sue,

I've just been on the IAB website and the details about tommorrows meeting in Sheffield is there under "members meetings" on the "news & events" page. As are meetings in various parts of East Anglia.

The Leeds branch meeting is on Thursday evening.

Which reminds me I need to give the IAB more dates for meetings for the rest of the year in Alton

Susie Sue · Senior Member

Thank you!

semsley · Guru

I've obviously been looking in the wrong places on the website too, because I have never found any meetings in Yorkshire. I tend to look at the front page and then go into the members area.